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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys, this is my first or second post I believe, but anyway I was trying to figure out a problem with my 1975 Case 444. I put it all back together after rebuilding it over the winter and took it out for the first time to try with the tiller and when I put the tiller in the ground the tiller would not turn, the tractor would not move and I couldn't raise the tiller back up until I shut off the pto and took it out of forward. I didn't hear any noises like a relief valve or anything. First thing I did was check the fluid and its full, I didn't see any foam so its not sucking air. So I figured I better get it back to the house and put it in hi range and it would hardly move then stopped, but the motor never dropped in rpm which I thought was really weird. So anyway, I have been looking at different manuals and trying to figure this out and have not idea what it could be, I was wondering if the relief valve could be way out, maybe the pump is not working well, I don't know.

Any ideas would be great,

Thanks

Adam Quist
 

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Hey Adam welcome to the forum.
The same test procedures you were already told to try will be listed here as well.
Since you say that you've had this apart and just put it back together are you sure you put the spider back in the lovejoys. Maybe you put it in backwards. :sidelaugh:
 

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If the tiller stalls and travel is weak without the engine reacting you are not building hyd. pressure. Since you just had the tractor apart and the fluid level is good, the first thing that I would check is the pump (lovejoy) coupling. If you knocked a key out of place during assembly the pump would not turn under pressure. The reason that I would check this first is if one of the coupler halves is able to spin, it can damage the crank or the pump shaft. If this is good it's on to hydraulic testing. Good luck, Gregg
 

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I have been following your thread on MTF and noted the various suggestions. The LoveJoy was not mentioned over there and it should have been for a number of reasons but since it has been spoken about twice in this thread, I concur with cp7 and Gregg.

If you did not replace the spider, you should have. These get hard over time to the point of disintegrating on you without notice. if you failed to install the coupler halves correctly, that can also lead to the condition you are experiencing. Set screws not tightened down will allow the key to walk out of the slot and leave the shaft to spin inside the coupler.

My suggestion is that you remove the engine and check the coupler carefully. Make sure that the key stock is still in the shaft key-ways. Put a new spider in while you have this open. You need to have about 60 thou gap between the spider halves to allow for metal expansion. If the expansion causes the halves to jam tightly together, the spider will fail quickly, followed by the coupler halves when you have metal on metal contact.

Also check the J-hose going between the pump and tank. If it is soft, it will collapse from pump suction and the oil will not reach the pump.
 

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NutCASE said:
I am gonna fess up at this pt...when I pulled the engine in my tractor...did a repair to my motor mount and put the motor back in. had every thing bolted up, then I noticed this little black thing on the floor, it must have rolled under the car. So, rather than fire up the tractor I decided to go to the parts manual...yep LOVEJOY...Now I have no freaking idea why they call it a lovejoy except to be funny...

Because if you forget it, the whole damned thing comes apart again to put it back...therefore it is neither...Love nor joy. In fact I have another name for it all together...which I will not go into at this point.

GL and there is a logical explanation for all this stuff...
Jim, just shrug it off, you learn more from failures than you do from successes. :trink:
By now I should have a PHD from Hard Knocks U.
 

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Billygoat said:
Now I have no freaking idea why they call it a lovejoy except to be funny...
That's the name of the manufacturer. I think that technically it's called a spider coupling.
Kinda like "Cresent" wrench, Cresent is a company that make popular adjustable wrenches so everyone came to know their wrenchs as cresent wrenchs even if made by someone else.

Lovejoy Inc make shaft couplers and thus their primary product came to be known as a lovejoy couplers even though other companies make them too.

http://www.lovejoy-inc.com/about-lovejoy/
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I will check the coupling and see if thats the problem, just stinks, because I was really excited that I could be wrapping this up, oh well. Thanks for the info, I will check that and get back to you guys, thanks for the info

Adam
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ok, so I took the pump mount off the back of the motor and the love-joy connector was together, I should replace the spider because its not in the greatest shape. Both of the keys are in and they are tight. The suction hose was not collapsing since I replaced it with the correct one, since there was some old piece of junk on there before. I have 15W-40 in the system as well, which was recomended to me. When I lifted the 3 pt to the highest wouldn't you normally get a sound from the releif valve? When I did it on mine, the engine rpm's slightly dropped but nothing major. I don't know what to do or think right now, I'm pretty frustrated so far. Thanks for the help and info though so far.

Adam
 

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Adam,
You have now ruled out three items. Suction line, type of oil and pump coupler.

The pump has now become the prime suspect. On very rare occasions, the gear on the input shaft of the pump can come detached. There can be enough friction between the shaft and the gear to pump some oil but the second the pressure rises, slippage takes place. Your system is acting like this pump is incapable of developing much over 200 PSI.

As I see it, you have two courses of action. Since you have the engine out, you could suck the oil out of the reservoir with a turkey baster to save it, remove the pump, dismantle it and inspect it internally. Pumps are very simple to take apart. You could make sure that the drive gear is on the shaft solidly and that both gears are not damaged. Inspection of the front and back plates will reveal how much wear the pump has.

The alternative is to invest in your own hydraulic test gauge kit and then use it once you install the new spider and make sure that there is adequate expansion space in the coupling.

Which way would you like to go? We are here to talk you through either choice.
 

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At this stage I would also do what Tom is suggesting. Removing and inspecting the pump is easy with the engine out. When I take pumps apart I like to mark the 3 aluminum sections with a prick punch for reference when assembling. I believe that the critical area for wear is the aluminum center section. This area gets worn from contamination or cavitation (air). When there is too much clearance between the gears and the housing the pump needs to be replaced. If you are unsure what you're looking for, take the disassembled pump to a hyd shop for an opinion. Good luck, Gregg
 

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Hydriv said:
The alternative is to invest in your own hydraulic test gauge kit and then use it once you install the new spider and make sure that there is adequate expansion space in the coupling.
What's involved in making your own test gauge? I assume it's a simple as a hyrdaulic hose with a hydraulic pressure guage that goes up to 3000 lbs.

Any internet links to sources for parts & guage or a complete test solution to get an idea of cost?

Something like this? http://www.hydracheck.com/pressgauges.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Is it possible to get a new pump from Ingersoll, or whomever owns them now, or can I use an aftermarket setup. The only thing I'm not sure is what the correct flow and pressure is. I think I have seen somplace that it uses 2000 psi at 9 gpm, is this correct :think: ? There is some play in the pump shaft when I took it out before, but I figured it was normal, guess not. I have to get the fluid drained and take the pump out.

Thanks
Adam
 

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eBoyDog said:
Hydriv said:
The alternative is to invest in your own hydraulic test gauge kit and then use it once you install the new spider and make sure that there is adequate expansion space in the coupling.
What's involved in making your own test gauge? I assume it's a simple as a hyrdaulic hose with a hydraulic pressure guage that goes up to 3000 lbs.

Any internet links to sources for parts & guage or a complete test solution to get an idea of cost?

Something like this? http://www.hydracheck.com/pressgauges.html
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/ ... _200397833

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/ ... 8484_48484

and a double female to couple
 

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aquist06 said:
Is it possible to get a new pump from Ingersoll, or whomever owns them now, or can I use an aftermarket setup. The only thing I'm not sure is what the correct flow and pressure is. I think I have seen somplace that it uses 2000 psi at 9 gpm, is this correct :think: ? There is some play in the pump shaft when I took it out before, but I figured it was normal, guess not. I have to get the fluid drained and take the pump out.

Thanks
Adam
Sure.. it's possible to get a new pump through an Ingersoll dealer. Would you like to pay 4 or 5 hundred for that privilege? Or would you prefer to spend $200.00 by making use of the link I sent you?

At the moment, you don't know whether a new pump is needed or not. We are trying to help you diagnose your TRUE problem to keep you from pissing money down the toilet. I would agree that your pump is likely worn out but suppose you ignore the advice you are being given, install a new pump and find out that the tractor is still doing the same thing?
 

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Hydriv said:
Bart said:
Did you ever check for the possibility that the relief valve setting is too low?
Considering the description of the problem, the ball and spring would have to be missing from the relief valve..
Probably not the first time something didn't get put back together correctly. Since there is no mention of a pump issue prior to the "rebuild" it seems unlikely that it suddenly went bad.
 
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