[motoman3b]

Well I'm wanting to add a backhoe to my 6018 that originally didnt come with one, I have a chance to buy an older davis backhoe D-100 (same as on the old 646 and 648) but I'm not sure I like the narrowness of the straight down stabilizer pads, the price seems reasonable at 1300? Or I've been considering ordering the micro hoe plans and just using the 3 pt as the micro only weighs about 350lbs, just wondering what you guys think I should do or if anybody has done this before and had some insight

 

[Bart]

I wanted a backhoe for several years but was not having much luck finding one so I bought the PF Engineering plans and started building one for my 6018. As luck would have it, when nearing completion of the hoe build I found a great deal on a nice 6018 LBH and purchased that one so now I have both. There is really no comparison between the capabilities of the two but the micro hoe is handy and does a nice job for small jobs.

Depending on your engineering and fabrication skills a hoe could be added to the 6018 but it is not a trivial job. I suggest you spend some time pouring over the parts manual for a 6018 LBH and you will see the heavy subframe and counterweight as well as the hydraulic system changes involved. The OEM hoe weighs approximately 1300 lbs MORE than the micro hoe and much of that weight is in the subframe.

I built my micro hoe to mount on the 3 pt which makes it easy to dismount when desired (not often) but I managed to distort the top link support when doing some heavy digging. In retrospect I think it would be better to build a rigid subframe similar to the one detailed in the PF plans.

 

[motoman3b]

Yeah I noticed the elaborate subframe and counterweight as well as the beefed up axle on the LBH models.... like the 3pt mount for simplicity as I use the tractor to till and backblade alot, the backhoe will be mostly just for trenching and stuff like that do you think if I beefed up the top link mount on the 3 pt it'd be fine? I've heard alot of people modifying something in the micro hoe plans, did you go by the plans or do some modifications?

 

[Hydriv]

A backhoe is the most powerful piece of hydraulic machinery one can add to a tractor. Therefore, the attachment system must be capable of withstanding those forces. In my opinion, a three point hitch was never designed to deal with the weight of a backhoe or the kind of forces a hoe is capable of exerting on the hitch.

In order for a hoe to do its job well, it needs to have as much of the tractor's weight bearing down on the stabilizer pads. The stabilizers must lift the rear wheels of the tractor off the ground in order to transfer that weight to the stabilizers. The natural digging patterns of the hoe are then pushing and pulling on the top link constantly. If this was an acceptable practice, then you would see other manufacturers using it. The thing is....you don't see it being done very much. Most people consider three point mounted hoes to be rather undesirable. The only real advantage they have is the speed in which the hoe can be mounted and dismounted. Personally, I consider that convenience to be far less important than having a hoe that will work to its very best all the time. This is why Case made loaders and loader/hoes. Years of experience taught them that three-point hoes just don't cut it.

 

[Bart]

I agree with Tom's points and have confirmed them through my own experience. The other option that I believe is quite practical would be to fabricate a subframe mounting bracket that attaches to the frame forward of the axle and to the top of the frame behind the seat. This will probably require some modification of the 3 pt mount if you want to keep that in place. The hoe could be attached with 3 or 4 pins to the subframe which would make it easy to dismount when you want to use the 3 pt. The PF plans detail a generic subframe mounting system to accomplish what I've described. I may make such a frame myself but the urgency of such a project has been greatly reduced since I have the OEM backhoe when I need to do heavy digging.

I am thinking about bring my PF hoe to the Cherry Valley show and there will be a 7020LBH there as well so that might be a good opportunity to see and learn about the options available to you.

 

[Hydriv]

Many years ago, I owned a Case 540 Utility tractor that came with the factory loader as well as a 540 PTO and 3 point hitch. I bought a Model 31 Case backhoe for it and faced this very problem. How do I mount the hoe and not lose the ability to use the hitch? I did just as Bart suggested. I fabricated a permanently mounted subframe that accepted extensions for the hoe to sit on. The extensions used two large diameter pins to secure them to the subframe. At the top were two arms that pinned into the upper part of the hoe and a long threaded rod passed through each arm. One end of that rod was secured to the subframe extension. I would remove the three point hitch arms and cranks from the tractor. Then I would back up to the hoe, connect the quick couplers and use the hoe cylinders to position the hoe onto the extensions. Once the hoe was sitting on the extensions, it was a simple matter to pivot the hoe's upper section to line it up with the top arms and insert those pins. A large adjustable completed the task by tightening down the nuts on the threaded rods, clamping the hoe in place.

 

[stainless316]

I'm now contemplating this very same thing. I'd like to add a backhoe attachment to my 6018 but not lose the ability to have a 3pt. Luckily I found this 7 year old thread! (I also found https://casecoltingersoll.com/showt...-line-on-2-D100-backhoes-Is-this-a-good-price)

Over the past years how did things go with your fabrications? Any pictures you may want to share? How did things hold up?

Which model(s) backhoe should I consider as the attachment? Or should I make one?
Any suggestions as to the mount points to the subframe?

 

[Harry]

In my opinion that's a huge project to complete. As mentioned the sub frame is important because those hoes are very powerful. I have a 644 lbh and I remember trying to dig out a few stumps and the bucket would catch on a root and pull the whole machine around. To big a job for a small machine like I have. Digging trenches no problem, just don't get the bucket hung up on something buried. Evaluate what jobs you have for a hoe to do and how soon you want to use it. Yes the machines don't come up that often. Just be ready with cash in hand when they do.

Keep the Peace :trink:
Harry

 

[dundee222]

Agree. While I could build the subframe, my time and materials would outpace buying one ready or almost ready to go. The 3 point is not NEARLY heavy enough or rigid enough for a hoe, especially when digging at right angles to the tractor.

 

[stainless316]

Thanks for your responses!

It would be for trenching and other work in soil as well as managing snow banks by being able to pull down snow from the top or hard to reach places where the loader cannot reach. I don't anticipate having to use it on a tree stump. If for some reason I get to the point where I would need to dig one up I would probably just hire a tree guy to grind it for $150. I wouldn't expect it to be able to do everything that a true backhoe can do that's attached to a larger machine.

The other problem I have is storage. Two tractors is :cheers: but it's that much more to store. Plus I'm giving my 6018 a serious restoration and so it's probably best for me to have one set of hydraulics, body panels, engine, etc to maintain.

Yeah I completely understand about the 3pt being inadequate for the task. It would have to be an attachment to the subframe.

I'd like to be able to reach 8-10 feet and have a lighter weight arm if necessary.

Getting down to the cost which is probably about the same as a tractor with the hoe like you said which I am guessing is 3-5k.

This gets us down to the hydraulics of running a backhoe. I'll take a look at the manual of the 644/6018 lbh to see what PSI/gpm the hoe requires to see how it matches up to what the PTO of my 6018 can produce.

If the hoe requires more than what the PTO produces it would run slower and with less power. Is there a way to work around that problem? An onboard pump on the backhoe itself which is powered by the tractor PTO? Not even sure if that's a thing :fingerscrossed: :???:

 

[bhildret]

This gets us down to the hydraulics of running a backhoe. I'll take a look at the manual of the 644/6018 lbh to see what PSI/gpm the hoe requires to see how it matches up to what the PTO of my 6018 can produce.

The OEM backhoes for the 6018 simply use the existing tractor hydraulics.

While the plumbing looks complicated, the 6018 backhoe comes off the secondary pump supply, then a power beyond port to supply the power steering oil.

Not an easy plumbing job, but a straight forward circuit within the capacity of the 6018 hydraulics (no pump difference).

One can imagine a circuit which uses the PTO valve to supply the backhoe, so long as you can balance the relief pressures, with quick connects to make the backhoe easier to mount/dismount.

Brian

 

[Toolslinger]

You don't need a tremendous flow for a hoe. The D-100's had flow restrictors on some of the ports, and believe me, you want that. As it is, with the restrictors in place, there's no problem getting things moving way faster than you want them. A lighter hoe, with smaller cylinders will move that much faster given the same flow.

I'd be real leery of a 3pt hookup. The D-100 has put enough strain on my 646 over the years that it cracked the frame in half in a couple places, plus cracked the boom towers almost clean off. Yes, it seems my unit was used hard, ok, real hard, but still, the forces involved are pretty serious for a small tractor such as the 600/6000 series. I can drop the hoe, and subframe off the tractor in 15 to 20 minutes when I want to. If you're not using a hoe much, I'd spend the time to figure out how to come up with a subframe that lets you mount a unit without disturbing the 3pt more than removing the arms. I believe it would be well worth the effort to create a capable system, and not endanger the 3pt...

Good luck!

 

[sdunt]

How about taking the need and attachment of a 'Backhoe' in another direction.. I was intrigued by this guys design: https://www.thegreensmachines.com/backhoe/

It a small machine, but for what I would consider doing it should do the trick. With a CCI loader, that has the Hydraulic PTO you can lose the engine and pump on the 'digger' and feed the valve stack from the tractor.

If you have Pallet forks for the tractor, you could use the loader to pick up and move this thing around, and possibly hold it down some.

It is interesting that the CCI manuals for the backhoe models specifically state to NOT tip the loader bucket and attempt to use the bucket to hold the tractor in place.. On CCI LBH models you are supposed to place the bucket flat on the ground, essentially in float.

That MIGHT be why LBH's seem to always have cracked loader frames??

 

[Harry]

I looked at the greensmachine backhoe. It certainly does look interesting and would free up the loader to move dirt that the backhoe dug up if necessary. Thanks for posting sdunt
Toolslinger I wasn't aware of flow restrictors on the backhoes. The controls on my 644lbh seem to move all the functions of the bucket nicely except for the swing. It's touchy and you have to be careful and move it slowly. I've never removed anything from the hydraulics, it's just the way it was when I got it. That's not to say some PO didn't change something.
I'm planning to start digging a small pond in my back yard and move the dirt to another location to build up for drainage purposes. The 644lbh can dig the pond and then have my 644l move the dirt to where I need it. I like having multiple machines to do the various chores. There is maintenance and cost of keeping them running. Storage is another item mentioned and none of mine have to stay outside during the winter.
Motoman and stainless, I hope my input has helped you somehow!

Keep the Peace :trink:
Harry

 

[Toolslinger]

The restrictions are small disks placed in the ports with very tiny holes in them. I don't honestly recall if they are shown pictorially in the parts diagram, but there is a spec for them, in I guess the hydraulic manual. It's been a while since I had to dig that info up to replace the valve stack. I recall two different sizes, so I'm sure one was in the swing circuit, the other I don't remember currently.

 

[stainless316]

Very helpful responses everyone! :clap: *clap clap clap*

So here is what the plan seems to be:

• Find backhoe that is good for reaching & digging soil (not ripping up stumps)
  • Since the "OEM hoe weighs approximately 1300 lbs MORE than the micro hoe and much of that weight is in the subframe" I don't want to put exceptional stress on the rear which was not designed for that type of load especially when in use. If the hoe weighs as much as the loaded weight box 300-500 then that seems reasonable.
• Power it with the existing hydraulic pump that came with my 1990 6018
• Use the PTO valve to supply the hoe
  • Figure out: "how to balance the relief pressures". I'm not sure about this one :think: but I'll do some research. This is new to me.
• Use hydraulic quick connects for mount/dismount
• Attach to the subframe
  • Figure out: which points are best. The suggestion is a "subframe mounting bracket that attaches to the frame forward of the axle and to the top of the frame behind the seat"

Question: I found a hoe that requires 15gpm. My manual says port 2 provides 8.8GPM. Can my PTO be used to power the hoe? Would it just run slower? Or am I not understanding this properly?

 

[bhildret]

Question: I found a hoe that requires 15gpm. My manual says port 2 provides 8.8GPM. Can my PTO be used to power the hoe? Would it just run slower? Or am I not understanding this properly?

Should be OK ... seems like it would take REALLY big cylinders to want 15 GPM! It will run slower than 15 GPM ... about 9/15 th's the speed!

The hoe you found ... what is it? How big are the rams? Not many industrial/ag systems would have operated above around 2500 PSI ...

Brian

 

[Gordy]

Do a google search for "garden tractor loader plans" you will come up with a number of options, listing back hoe plans also.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gar....69i57j0l5.45285j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

One is https://www.cadplans.com/

Another is http://www.loaderplans.com/ May favorite in their gallery is a Ingersoll LGT 318 garden tractor loader on page 28. http://www.loaderplans.com/backhoes-loaders-photo-gallery/customers-loaders?page=28#category

:cheers:
Gordy

 

[stainless316]

Oh sweet! Thanks for sharing!

I've seen a couple mower -> loader conversions and some of them are pretty funky. Great resource for parts and ideas!

 

[Harry]

The only loader mower I prefer is a 3 pt mower in the rear.

Keep the Peace :trink:
Harry