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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This has been discussed quite a bit and more discussion over on other tractor forums. I read everything I could, but still have a feeling of unanswered questions. I want to provide independent lift from the mid-lift cylinder to added cylinders for both the rear and a future front implement, so I would have rear, mid, and front control for various implements. I have a 3 spool valve and while it seems common to feed one via a selector valve on the lift circuit I just don't like that because it limits simultaneous control of implements. So my solution is to take the input hose to the rear PTO and run that to the input of the spool, take the out of the spool and put it back to the input itself of the rear PTO, then the output of the PTO can continue on its path. Any issues with this? So I guess it would be a series setup?

(I do not have a flow control valve on my setup, I couldn't find an image with a schematic with just the PTO and not the FCV).

The only thing I worry about is that I do not have relief adjustment on this spool valve. It came off an old swather, made its way to a wood splitter, and then the splitter got a proper splitter valve. I imagine the spool valve has relief because there would be a characteristic squeal when the splitter got stopped from a big knot in some wood or something, but maybe that is a poor assumption. I'm not confident in hydraulics, but a willing learner.

123099
 

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1 the lift circuit is separate from the travel/pto circuit in that it is regulated to 525psi. {something to keep in mind]
2 If plumbed like you envision, travel [also the PTO] will stop quite abruptly while you are using the oil to move a cylinder
3 You must have more than three arms hands and eyes, as I cannot imagine controlling 2 implements simultaneously while moving [at opposite ends of the tractor no less.]
4 Curious as to where in the #ell you are gonna mount such a valve???? Valve alone must weigh 30+ pounds and add to that another 30 pounds of plumbing leaves me scratching my head.
 

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1 the lift circuit is separate from the travel/pto circuit in that it is regulated to 525psi. {something to keep in mind]
2 If plumbed like you envision, travel [also the PTO] will stop quite abruptly while you are using the oil to move a cylinder
3 You must have more than three arms hands and eyes, as I cannot imagine controlling 2 implements simultaneously while moving [at opposite ends of the tractor no less.]
4 Curious as to where in the #ell you are gonna mount such a valve???? Valve alone must weigh 30+ pounds and add to that another 30 pounds of plumbing leaves me scratching my head.
Andy is right. If you operate any of your lifts while you're in motion, The abrupt stop may throw you right off the seat!

This is why it's always a bad idea to install a spool valve upstream of your TCV. See my final post below for what will work.

Bob
 

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Maybe I am over simplifying this :unsure: Wouldn't it work to have the in and return from the 3 spool hooked to the OEM lift ports? Them lock the OEM lift valve open?

That is what I was planning on doing with the 3 spool from a JD rider, I got it on eBay. Other projects keep jumping in front of it though.

Cheers,
Gordy
 

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Maybe I am over simplifying this :unsure: Wouldn't it work to have the in and return from the 3 spool hooked to the OEM lift ports? Them lock the OEM lift valve open?

That is what I was planning on doing with the 3 spool from a JD rider, I got it on eBay. Other projects keep jumping in front of it though.

Cheers,
Gordy
Gordy, I think it's going to depend on if your 3 spool valve is a open or closed center. If it is open the oil from the lift would flow continuously, robbing flow from the system.
 

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Maybe you should consider electric cylinder spool valves. I have my 4223PS set up with 3 electric spools. The bank is fed by the TCV lift cylinder, so all are under normal supply, routing, and relief in the TCV. No ill effects on the tractor operation (incl P/S).

The 3 locations (rear, OEM mid-lift, and front) can then be operated all at once, or any combination, using simple select switches. The OEM lift lever hand control is the operator's control. Each can be completely isolated/turned off/locked in place also.

Typically I am controlling 3 point, mid-lift, and a front angling cylinder. Rarely do I actually use 2 at one time, though select cases do favor lifting the blade and angling at the same time, if only briefly.

This also leaves the PTO independent to power implements such as the tiller, or my converted sickle bar (which has a 3 point platform lift and a sickle bar retract/pivot cylinder).

I sure understand the desire to re-use the valve on hand, but might not be the ideal work around.

Alternatively, some have successfully used TCV valves to get a PTO (hi flow) and 2nd cylinder control. Not without it's merits but also has a few quirky side affects.

Brian
 

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Does the 3 spool have Power Beyond? If the valve is really old it may be a series type where you can back-pressure the tank line. Most valves, however, can't have more than 250-500psi on the tank, so if you use in series ahead of TCV, you would have to limit the pressure to 500psi at the TCV. I suggest you look into a new valve with PB, that can flow 10-15 gpm, or a selector valve on the lift control. Installing a valve ahead of the TCV will not stop the tractor when you operate it if you feather the control, like operating boom and bucket simultaneously on a loader.

Where are you located?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Manitoba.

I will read everyone's input more thoroughly later, but will just answer some of the simple stuff for now...

It's not that heavy a unit. Not that big. Has an in/out port and 3 levers, each lever controlling it's own circuit off the block. Maybe I'm not using the term 3-spool right - I was under the impression that that's what it is because it has a main in/out and then the 3 separate independently controllable ports.

I've considered mounting it to the right of the tractor dash or kind of beside me on the fender. It would eliminate the ability to go on and off that side, probably, but that's what the other side is for. I think I can do the hoses fairly tidy.

As for simultaneous control...with travel foot control and maybe mid-lift foot control in the future it leaves me with hands. It's also easy to finesse two levers beside each-other at the same time. The main thing for me is that the selector valve to switch which cylinder is being controlled is not efficient. You have to break what you are doing for a moment and lets say I have a belly mounted grader and front or rear attachment doing something at the same time...being able to adjust on the fly is just smoother. It's a quality-of-life thing for me. I have lots of stuff kicking around and easy access to other hydraulic parts, so with cost being low I don't mind spending time. In actuality I probably only need control at the back independent from the mid, but I have what I have kicking around and want to know what I can do with it.

Here is a question, though, what is different about the rear PTO valve from say my spool valve? Sorry if my questions are dumb. I'm probably going to answer my own question. I can run the PTO at the same time as my travel motor...I guess that's the purpose of the power-beyond? So I need a spool with power-beyond or separate PB attached to my spool in order not to stop the operation of the travel motor? I think I am grasping it better now...so I guess I could rig up a test circuit and see how my spool valve acts. I was under the impression that oil would always flow through the in/out and the 3 valves would just siphon off somehow, but I am being honest about my lack of knowledge here.

I understand why one would install a selector valve off the lift circuit to make life easy. I also get going with electric actuators, but then I would be getting into budget I didn't plan for (believe me I looked hard at those). Ah well, good to find out where I am at anyway. Thanks for the input so far and entertaining my lack of experience in hydraulics.

I'll peruse the responses better a bit later...
 

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Manitoba.

I will read everyone's input more thoroughly later, but will just answer some of the simple stuff for now...

It's not that heavy a unit. Not that big. Has an in/out port and 3 levers, each lever controlling it's own circuit off the block. Maybe I'm not using the term 3-spool right - I was under the impression that that's what it is because it has a main in/out and then the 3 separate independently controllable ports.

I've considered mounting it to the right of the tractor dash or kind of beside me on the fender. It would eliminate the ability to go on and off that side, probably, but that's what the other side is for. I think I can do the hoses fairly tidy.

As for simultaneous control...with travel foot control and maybe mid-lift foot control in the future it leaves me with hands. It's also easy to finesse two levers beside each-other at the same time. The main thing for me is that the selector valve to switch which cylinder is being controlled is not efficient. You have to break what you are doing for a moment and lets say I have a belly mounted grader and front or rear attachment doing something at the same time...being able to adjust on the fly is just smoother. It's a quality-of-life thing for me. I have lots of stuff kicking around and easy access to other hydraulic parts, so with cost being low I don't mind spending time. In actuality I probably only need control at the back independent from the mid, but I have what I have kicking around and want to know what I can do with it.

Here is a question, though, what is different about the rear PTO valve from say my spool valve? Sorry if my questions are dumb. I'm probably going to answer my own question. I can run the PTO at the same time as my travel motor...I guess that's the purpose of the power-beyond? So I need a spool with power-beyond or separate PB attached to my spool in order not to stop the operation of the travel motor? I think I am grasping it better now...so I guess I could rig up a test circuit and see how my spool valve acts. I was under the impression that oil would always flow through the in/out and the 3 valves would just siphon off somehow, but I am being honest about my lack of knowledge here.

I understand why one would install a selector valve off the lift circuit to make life easy. I also get going with electric actuators, but then I would be getting into budget I didn't plan for (believe me I looked hard at those). Ah well, good to find out where I am at anyway. Thanks for the input so far and entertaining my lack of experience in hydraulics.

I'll peruse the responses better a bit later...
Everything I previously said here is wrong. Do not install a spool valve, Power Beyond or not, upstream of your TCV. I did it, and it was a mistake. See below for what will actually work.

Bob
 

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Brian
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should consider electric cylinder spool valves. I have my 4223PS set up with 3 electric spools. The bank is fed by the TCV lift cylinder, so all are under normal supply, routing, and relief in the TCV. No ill effects on the tractor operation (incl P/S).

The 3 locations (rear, OEM mid-lift, and front) can then be operated all at once, or any combination, using simple select switches. The OEM lift lever hand control is the operator's control. Each can be completely isolated/turned off/locked in place also.

Typically I am controlling 3 point, mid-lift, and a front angling cylinder. Rarely do I actually use 2 at one time, though select cases do favor lifting the blade and angling at the same time, if only briefly.

This also leaves the PTO independent to power implements such as the tiller, or my converted sickle bar (which has a 3 point platform lift and a sickle bar retract/pivot cylinder).

I sure understand the desire to re-use the valve on hand, but might not be the ideal work around.

Alternatively, some have successfully used TCV valves to get a PTO (hi flow) and 2nd cylinder control. Not without it's merits but also has a few quirky side affects.

Brian
Hey Brian, any chance of getting a few pics of your setup. Maybe a little more about it.
Or is there a thread about it already here. Did a little looking, but didn't turn any up.
I think I like your setup for what I want to do.

Thanks, Timj
 

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Bob,

If you're willing to redo it in the latter configuration, that's exactly what I'm hoping to do to my "former parts tractor, so what the heck" build.

Thank you for all who contributed in this thread!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Maybe you should consider electric cylinder spool valves. I have my 4223PS set up with 3 electric spools. The bank is fed by the TCV lift cylinder, so all are under normal supply, routing, and relief in the TCV. No ill effects on the tractor operation (incl P/S)....
pictures really do help eliminate words. Makes even more sense to me now that I've had to tinker with some other machines this past summer. Thank you for all the input this thread got more than I thought.

I like the idea of using electric spool valves! I discovered them through Princess Auto when browsing for other things. Could certainly make the install cleaner. I'm actually glad I waited to do anything because this thread filled up with more information and gave me time to ponder the pros/cons of using parts lying around.

I keep watching auctions for parts tractors to salvage a TCV, so we'll see where this goes. I'm glad there's multiple options presented in this thread.
 

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I WAS INCORRECT.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO INSTALL A POWER BEYOND SPOOL VALVE UPSTREAM OF YOUR TCV.

Because any time that valve is activated, it completely isolates fluid to and from your TCV, which LOCKS the rear wheels INSTANTLY. I'd consider that unworkable to the point of being unsafe.

I have one piped in that way right now, and it was a waste of my time. Learn from my mistake.

What can you do?

As I've been able to understand it, you have three options:

1. Split out a separate circuit for the new spool valve
A. Using something like a "Priority Flow Divider Valve" where you have a "priority circuit" that feeds your TCV and an "overflow" circuit that feeds your loader/spool valve. I have one of those on the way, and I'll report back confirming its success.


Here what that looks like without power steering
Slope Font Parallel Engineering Rectangle


And with power steering:

Slope Font Rectangle Parallel Technology

B. Installing a new hydro pump, one that has two separate sections (like on the 6018)

OR
2. Use a Case/Ingersoll "custom" power beyond TCV.
A. The factory power beyond TCV is a custom configuration whereby the PB port is always pressurized. All the flow from the open center goes to PB, and all the flow returning from the travel motor goes to PB. So any spool valve you put downstream of the PB port on a factory "TCV with PB" will always have available flow to work with. You can look up the hydro layout for any of the 64X series to see what that looks like.
But it has to be a factory TCV with factory spec Power Beyond port and sleeve.
And it has to be piped FIRST in line, upstream of your new/additional spool valve.

I apologize if my previous advice has led anyone astray.
 
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