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1993 Ingersoll 4118
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am starting this thread to see if there are any new developments with the hydraulic motors used on the attachments of the All Hydraulic tractors (3100 & 4100). Mainly the AHRM mowers. I have 4118 that I bought new, I think 1994. It has 1200 hours. Really like it. The deck motor is getting tired. Looking for advice before I go and try to reinvent the wheel. I know others are in the same situation.

There have been a number of threads on this subject in the past, but most are five or more years old. Most were left open ended, no real answers or follow up if a solution was found.

*We know these models were only made for a couple of years.

*We know they have larger hydraulic pumps and their attachments have larger displacement hydraulic motors.

*We know that standard attachments should not be ran on an All Hydraulic tractor, except tiller or splitter.

*We know there are issues with the hydraulic motors loosing power as they get worn and loose blade speed in thicker grass. on hills they bypass enough to stall and loose power to the tires.

*We know it gets worce as the oil gets hot. The oil gets hot because of the bypassing.

*We know the hydraulic motors were proprietary, expensive and are no longer available.

All that being said, there seems to still be a fair number of the "All Hydraulic" tractors out there.

The "QUESTION" is, what are those that have these tractors doing to keep their attachments hydraulic motors going? The mower deck seems to be the toughest because of the limited space for the motor. Other attachments would only need to match the displacement, rotation, and bolt/flange size.

As more years go by, finding good used ones is less likely.

Has anyone found a non-OEM motor that fits the AHRM deck?

Has anyone had good luck with a hydraulic shop rebuilding their motor?

Have you just gave up on running hydraulic attachments and only use your tractor for other tasks?

Does the Webster C36963 seen to be the most prone to failure

If you have one of the All Hydraulic tractors, please chime in with your experience. It may be good for all and will be available for all in the future.
 

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As far as I know there still is no easy solution, but I am sure there is one out there. I have a 4120 and just sold a real nice one and package this weekend.
 

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I don't think I have ever seen a hydraulic schematic for the AH tractors, and this is the site to have it. Can someone help direct me to it.
I'm sure there is a solution. There are lots of offshore suppliers of good quality products at good prices. Case (and then Ingersoll) should have made the PTO part of the TCV and even added a second auxiliary valve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hydrogeek, I don't think the hydraulic setup/layout is that different from a power steering tractor with a rear PTO aside from the two section pump and different relief valve. The main issue is when the hydraulic motor in the deck gets tired. Finding a motor that will fit in the available space in the deck with the right displacement and shaft length.

I don't have any pics at this time and my deck is on the tractor. I think there is some in this thread.

Routing the Hydraulic lines on an all hyrdraulic deck https://casecoltingersoll.com/showthread.php?t=90927
Hoping you would chime in, Tim
 

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I don't think I have ever seen a hydraulic schematic for the AH tractors, and this is the site to have it. Can someone help direct me to it.
I'm sure there is a solution. There are lots of offshore suppliers of good quality products at good prices. Case (and then Ingersoll) should have made the PTO part of the TCV and even added a second auxiliary valve.
Try this link,
https://manuals.casecoltingersoll.c...- How it works Manual 9-50884_watermarked.pdf

I found it here,

https://casecoltingersoll.com/showthread.php/11030-Hydraulic-section

:cheers:
Gordy
 

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Has anyone had success with heavier oil? I have wanted to try 50 weight but before incurring the expense and hassle would like confirmation. I imagine it will also eventually overheat. In addition (as stated on other threads) it could put some of those expensive moulded soft lines at risk during cold winter starting.


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I have just gone through those files as I have done before and I don't see anything that says All Hydraulic, or connections to deck. Perhaps its because I don't know what serial numbers to look for. I imagine there must be some kind of difference in the circuit design. If I had an AH tractor, I would consider using a standard pump for TCV and a second bigger pump for the hydraulic PTO mounted to the engine's PTO shaft. I know space is at a premium.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
In the hydraulic system manuals that Gordy left the link to, look for the 3118, 4116, 4118, and 4120 tractors, these are the "All Hydraulic" models.

The serial number on my 4118 is 14172542
 

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I have just gone through those files as I have done before and I don't see anything that says All Hydraulic, or connections to deck. Perhaps its because I don't know what serial numbers to look for. I imagine there must be some kind of difference in the circuit design. If I had an AH tractor, I would consider using a standard pump for TCV and a second bigger pump for the hydraulic PTO mounted to the engine's PTO shaft. I know space is at a premium.
I have not been around any thing that new :wink: :headscratcher:Aren't the 31xx and 41xx's the AH model's? In that first link there was a diagram of the hydraulic layout for them.

:cheers:
Gordy

Opp's Tim beat me to it :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Gordy; we must have been typing at the same time. lol That's good! we are all in this together.

Thanks for that link, I have never read that hydraulic manual, don't know why, thought I had been through most of them. Know what I'll be reading tonight.

Thanks again, Tim
 

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Okay, I guess I have seen it before. I thought there would be a more significant difference. Can the mower deck go backwards? Or is it like the Hydro-Vac. How about a Hydro-Vac manual, is there one of those? Does the deck spin down when you turn it off?
 

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The deck motors have a reverse check valve of sorts ... they don't readily spin in reverse though they may move. Similar in the hydrovac impeller motor.

Yes, the inertia of the deck blades results in a continuing spin down to stop after the pto valve is closed.

This is why on these high inertia implements (mowers, chipper, vac, snowblower) we always recommend to bring the engine to an idle first, then shut off the PTO. (Same really for electric clutch/brake PTOs) Saves on the time and power of the motor turning in to a pump and spinning down, possibly creating high hydraulic pressures which can disrupt the main seal.

The case drain circuit is intended to take all the pumped down oil during the spin down. In practical experience, this wasn't always sufficient. In later service kits Ingersoll introduced the bypass valve circuit, which allowed the motor to spin down while recirculating the oil, rather than trying to exhaust it all out the case drain. While these kits no longer exist, it was a simple check valve component in parallel to the motor, allowing reverse oil flow if the 'out' side of the motor had higher pressure than the 'in'. I still have a hydracutter equipped with one of these late, bypass service kits.

Brian
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Another interesting read regarding the relief valve in AH tractors.

https://casecoltingersoll.com/forum.php#/topics/20161?page=1

I'm not sure if you would hear this type of relief valve dumping off oil like others. I know where it is, just don't know what the best way to test it is. I know my hydraulic motor doesn't look great inside, and others that were able to try a different implement with a known good hydraulic motor were able to determine that their hydraulic motor was bad, but seems like a possibility.

Maybe I'm starting to confuse myself, but it seems like the way the oil moves through the system that even if the hydraulic motor was worn and bypassing, the drive motors for the wheels shouldn't loose that much power. If I get a minute in the next couple of days, I'm going to hook up to a tree and see what happens. Have not noticed any lack of power, but going to put it to the test.
 

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Another interesting read regarding the relief valve in AH tractors.

https://casecoltingersoll.com/forum.php#/topics/20161?page=1

I'm not sure if you would hear this type of relief valve dumping off oil like others. I know where it is, just don't know what the best way to test it is. I know my hydraulic motor doesn't look great inside, and others that were able to try a different implement with a known good hydraulic motor were able to determine that their hydraulic motor was bad, but seems like a possibility.

Maybe I'm starting to confuse myself, but it seems like the way the oil moves through the system that even if the hydraulic motor was worn and bypassing, the drive motors for the wheels shouldn't loose that much power. If I get a minute in the next couple of days, I'm going to hook up to a tree and see what happens. Have not noticed any lack of power, but going to put it to the test.
This seems a bit off topic from your initial post ... but here is a thought on this detail.

In my experience, the relief valve is more commonly the root cause in AH tractor performance issues characterized by 'loses power under load ... mower deck comes almost to a stop and the tractor comes to a crawl'.

Replacement of the relief cartridge is in order, in most cases.

In theory, the motor could dump enough oil down the case drain to slow the tractor down, but in practice I don't think we've seen that happening.

However, a LOT of AH owners seem to give up and not take it to conclusion, so there are lots of mixed messages in this general area.

Brian
 

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So it seems like nobody has yet tested the relief valve theory. Am I reading this right? I run an old center drive tiller on my AH and haven’t noticed the drive related issues that come up with the mower. Of course, I don’t know that I done a continuous tilling session for as long as I normally mow. I will say that after the mower is off my drive comes back to life instantly.

I don’t have the equipment or know how to do a complete test of the system. My capabilities are within the realm of trial and error which I guess is why I am still struggling with this.


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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Brian, I agree it just doesn't seem like there is any conclusion to this, if the problem was solved or not it was never put on to end the thread. It does seem off the original topic but also may be very related to the All Hydraulic's issues. I would hate to replace the motor only to find out the check was the problem. We kinda gave up on it years ago when our dealer couldn't fix it.

I probably should have started with a different title. Just couldn't come up with what would draw the most attention. I am pretty happy with where the thread is at and going, I would add " and AH tractors" if I could. Hope more will chime in, especially AH owners.

I would really like to get some where here, and put some good answers in this thread for everyone now and in the future. I am not a great mechanic, but this is the main issue with my tractor and what got me here to CCI. Was hoping to find an easy answer, but that doesn't seem to exist. I'm certainly not afraid to try things. I truely enjoy this forum, and will consider any resolve I find part of my payback. I hate to think how many of these tractors may have been junked out of frustration from these issues.

Do you think that enough oil would go through the case drain to slow the motor that much? It's a pretty small opening in the motor, although under high pressure. It looks like the case drain dumps back to the TCV.

I haven't found a test procedure yet for the deck motor, was thinking of starting with just getting a pressure guage in the the main hydraulic line or the PTO line, just to see what the pressure is and how it changes.

I think I can see if my relief valve is dumping oil by disconnecting the bypass line from the tee on the intake side of the pump, plugging the tee side, and running a short piece of hose back to the fill on the oil reservoir.

Your knowledge, experience, and input here is greatly appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
RF.... I thought it was something to think about, talked about in a couple of threads but no concrete answer. Kinda makes sense but it also seems like others who had another good attachment to try ended up back at the motor as the problem. I think your tiller use goes there too. I don't think if your relief valve was dumping off any amount of oil it would run the tiller well, although you weren't at it
as long, to heat up oil, and tilling was probably level ground. Also the motor on the older tiller is less displacement, I think.

Trial and error is where I'm at to. It seems odd with all the equipment I have, but I'm not much of a mechanic. A good water system trouble shooter, trying to get my head wrapped around this hydraulic system.

Do you have any of the numbers off your motor, didn't think to write any of mine down when I had it out.

Keep with this thread, Tim
 
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