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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
1972 444 I purchased is missing the pto clutch lever/arm due to the fact it had a loader on it and it drove the pump continuously. Everything appears to be there except the lever/arm. I've checked the Parts manuals on the site but am hoping someone may be able to tell me what other part numbers would work in its place. I'm not knowledgable enough on these to even be sure if a part in my hand matches up with the illustration in the manuals are the same let along trying to do the same with a photo ont he internet. Any help would be much appreciated.

Also, didnt find anything on paint. Obviously its available but where to go and what info do I need in order to buy (codes, etc)?
 

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I'm confused, are you speaking of the rod that goes to front of the engine pulleys or the fork that attaches from the rod to clutch assembley?

Your referrence to driving the pump, are you talking about the hydro pump at the rear of the engine? If so, that pump does run continiously, it's the belt/clutch that can be disengaged & engaged by the rod.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Fork between rod and clutch. The one that engages/disengages the pto clutch. Appears to have been quite a few different ones but wondering if dimensionally there are many that would interchange.

The loader had its own pump mounted down below that ran off the PTO clutch and it was set up to run coninuously (least that is what I was told). They just removed the fork.
 

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OK, a second pump never dawned on me! I would have thought that the whoever installed the FEL would have just tapped into the existing hydro system rather than have a seperate system.

So you have the rod that goes to the lever, just missing the fork that attaches to the clutch and the rod or is it the other way, you have the fork on the clutch, just no rod ?

I have an extra rod but I'm not sure if it's the right one for yours, mine came off a '77 Case 222.
 

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Your PIN (serial #) is needed. This is the only accurate way to determine correct part numbers
Ingersolltractor.com indicates fork # C23506 for 1972. Indeed, you may have a `72, or then again, maybe not.
There are also C23391 & C25702 for later tractors. If these interchange I do not know.

Publish your PIN and we`ll research.

Hope this helps. :wave:
 

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[quote="Rockdog"

Also, didnt find anything on paint. Obviously its available but where to go and what info do I need in order to buy (codes, etc)?[/quote]

Available from Messick`s Farm Equipment
 

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A 1972 Case used a "shim style" clutch. Many of those clutches wore out over the years and the newer EZ style clutch was installed in it's place.

Once again, we have a TECH section here that has a SERVICE MANUAL section that covers both types of clutches. You need to figure out which style of clutch you have. Used throw-out forks show up on e-Bay all the time, usually for not much money.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Didnt get a chance to get the s/n off my tractor last night but will tomorrow for sure.

Hydriv - Ebay has lot of forks but virtually zero p/n's. I dont know if a "came from 446 with an Onan" or "came from a 222" would work in a 1972 444 or not. And I cant tell by the picture cause my tractor is missing its fork.
 

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There are basically two forks and the only difference I can tell is the length of the arm. Look in the parts manual for your tractor and others then you should be able to see the difference--I think the shorter arms are used on the Kohler engine tractors but I'm not sure and haven't researched it. You can probably make either one work.
 

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Rockdog said:
Didnt get a chance to get the s/n off my tractor last night but will tomorrow for sure.

Hydriv - Ebay has lot of forks but virtually zero p/n's. I dont know if a "came from 446 with an Onan" or "came from a 222" would work in a 1972 444 or not. And I cant tell by the picture cause my tractor is missing its fork.
Rockdog........

Trust me when I tell you that I'm not trying to be difficult or a smart-ass. When I ask you to do something, it's not because I'm too lazy to help you out. I directed you to our Tech Section for good reason. I'm not there to look at your clutch to figure out which clutch you have. BUT YOU ARE. That's what the manuals in the Tech Section do. They show YOU the visual difference between a shim clutch and an EZ Adjust clutch so that YOU can figure out which one you have. You need to know that FIRST and then once you do, you can get Sellers on e-Bay to tell you which throwout fork they have listed.

Clutch arm for E-Z Adjust models of Case clutches used to be part number C26616. The new part number is C26702. You are looking at $110.82 or so if you buy one from a dealer.

The clutch arm for early shim adjust clutches is different. The earlier part number was C23506 but now it's C26702 and it's around $110.82 or so, too.

There's also C27031 Clutch arm that fits many 446/448 models and it's part number C27031. Cost is around $85.22.

The first arm is for Kohler engines and so is the second one if you still have the shim clutch.

We are here to help you solve the problems you are having but you have to read the advice given and then do what we ask you to do so that we can help you further. OK? :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks guys. I know I'm dealing with a shim adjustment style clutch.

Hydriv - I understand and I'm not being lazy. I read the manuals and a pretty good amount of other info available on the site (which is awsome by the way). I do understand how to read them and write down p/n's and cross reference them to models and years. The problem I'm having is that illustrations dont exactly like the ones shown in pics of parts for sale on the net (or at least I'm not picking it up - maybe I'm slow). A different p/n doesnt necessarily mean different packaging (could be material , manufacturing process used, heat treat, etc.). Was hoping someone ran into this problem before and could share what they found from a dimensional comparison perspective or whether they've interchanged any orall of them and what did or didnt work if any. I'd rather pay the $100 bucks for a new arm then end up spending $100 on 4 different used ones on e-bay or something hoping I was right based on comparing a pic vs. a 40 year old manual illustration.

If the widths of the fingers which engage the cams are the same amongst them and the distance from the c/l of the clutch/crank to the c/l of the engagement rod loops are the same I suppose I could get any to work with a little finess...
 

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There is very little difference between a shim clutch and EZ adjust clutch so the forks should be interchangeable. I have a vague recollection of installing a short fork on an Onan powered 200 series tractor and had a minor clearance issue that was solved by bending the linkage a bit. I suspect that the longer fork will work in any situation. If I were you and could locate a cheap fork I'd grab it and try it before forking over $100 for a new one but then I'm a Scotsman.
 

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I appreciate the fact that you are doing your "due diligence" here by asking questions first so you buy just once. Keep in mind this. If the engine in a 1973 Kohler powered tractor sits ONE HALF of and inch higher off the frame than it would on a 1972 tractor without the rubber isolation mounts; the belt has to be ONE INCH longer because the belt comes to the clutch on one side and leaves the clutch on the other. So that's 1/2" more each way for a total of one inch. The clutch actuator rod that is between the clutch fork and the lever that works the clutch, doesn't have to travel double the distance like the belt does. There's plenty of leeway under the engine for it to lift up a half inch.

The clutch cams for the shim clutch and the EZ clutch are identical, as are the bearings, shims, clutch disc and so forth. The difference is primarily found in the main shaft that all those parts slide onto. The part numbers and prices I gave you came from Ed Beudro's old site. If Ed sold only 3 clutch forks, then you can take it to the bank that there are only 3 forks to concern yourself with. Since you have a shim clutch, you are down to ONE fork that would be 100 percent correct.

So, let's set all of this aside for the moment.

Shim clutches are a royal PITA to adjust. Why don't you just spend $150.00 or so to buy a good, used EZ Adjust clutch c/w fork, off of e-Bay? Problem solved. You can hang onto your shim clutch for the spare parts it can offer down the road to service the EZ clutch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Bit the bullet and purchased a used fork off e-bay that I'm pretty sure is the right one. Appears to me the big difference is the change to bushed control rod (at both ends) which probably drives larger eyes on the fork.

Maybe a clutch upgrade will be the way to go. I'll keep my eye's open for one. Wonder if a little stiffer belville springs would help keep the disc from wearing as much.

Hydriv - when reading the 'oil' section of the FAQ's I'd steer people away from synthetics on these old tractors. I've been a product engineer in the driveline industry for over 15 years now (automotive and large Ag Tractors) and we pretty much didnt go to 100% synthetic compatibility on seals and other 'rubber' components until the late '90s (some synthetics can breakdown a lot of older seal materials pretty quickly). We use 10W30 in the tractors on the charge and lube sides . Charge sides only go up to a little over 300psi though in the drivetrains and would have to double check on the implement side of things.

On the subject of amount of lube I can understand why someone may significantly drop the amount of lube in a drive axle. There is always a 'sweet-spot' in a spash system when it comes to volume. Too much or too little and they overheat. Doesnt take a whole lot to get out of that 'sweet-spot' either. Too much lube really cuts down on the sling/splash which allows the lube to cool by direct contact with a large surface area of the housing. Obviously this is mostly true for splash lube and compact systems with no external coolers.

No sling/splash means no heat disapation and it also means less/no lube to interfaces which above sump level. I'm guessing the performance requirements of these tractors at some time became arduous enough to require some development work in this regard and it was determined a drop in lube level was needed. Theres also a point where a certain volume of lube is needed to keep from sheeromg it or 'wearing it out' to fast.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Also wanted to mention the PIN on my tractor (444 and you'd said in another post is a '72) is 9653565 and I didnt find a parts manual for this serial number in the Tech Library.
 

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Rockdog said:
Maybe a clutch upgrade will be the way to go. I'll keep my eye's open for one. Wonder if a little stiffer belville springs would help keep the disc from wearing as much.
I just rebuilt a shim clutch last week and it really isn't a big deal. Sure, an EZ adjust clutch is a bit easier to adjust but this isn't something you have to do very often--I've gone for years without having to touch the clutch adjustment once it's set properly. Unless you routinely engage the clutch with the engine at full throttle and the attachment under load you shouldn't have to worry about the clutch for a long time. The trickiest part is getting it set properly at the outset and that isn't all that tricky once you figure it out.
 

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Rockdog said:
Also wanted to mention the PIN on my tractor (444 and you'd said in another post is a '72) is 9653565 and I didnt find a parts manual for this serial number in the Tech Library.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Upon checking the Tech Section, I can understand how you came to that conclusion. In fact, the manual that is correct for you tractor is C-1181. It was there all the time but it was not marked with all the correct information. I have corrected the listing.

This forum was rushed onto the internet, well in advance of the time-line I set out back in November. Circumstance forced that to happen. The Tech Section and FAQ's were supposed to be in place prior to opening the doors for business. We have worked diligently to live up to the initial promise of having the biggest and best library on the internet and we are still not done. I apologize for the delay and the mistakes that resulted due to the mad rush to populate that area. Along the way, I have uncovered the odd error made by "others", that we relied upon for accurate information. It happens and most likely, other errors will surface in the coming days. If you point them out, I will move swiftly to correct them. That's the best I can offer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Bart - I appreciate the feedback. I'll tear the clutch down and hopefully be good to go. If it needs a refreshment I'll probably go with a more modern friction material. I dont have dry clutch experience but I know some guys who do!

Hydriv - didnt mean to come across as complaining. Just mentioned it in case someone had the manual somewhere or maybe you could list it as "needed". I THOUGHT I saw a manual for my danged tractor on this site because I specifically looked for and found the 'implement height limiter' you'd pointed out previously.
 
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