Changing hydraulic oil for the winter

2321 Views 38 Replies 11 Participants Last post by Vigo, 4 mo ago

CFB

Discussion Starter · 5 mo ago

Hello,
I've only used my 448 for occasional summer mowing and rototilling. When I bought it from my father-in-law I put in 15w40 oil for the hydraulics and straight 30 for the engine.

Last week it was 60 degrees lower than today at minus 4. It stalled out on me several times, especially when I got to the end of a push ( I have a front end blade). A few days later it was in the teens and I cleaned up the driveway without a single stall. I read the manual which said to use 5w20 when below 32 degrees.

I found the small drainage hex screw to drain the oil. I used an extra long hex wrench to get away from the pipes and where I would have leverage, but I could not budget it loose. Any tips on draining the hydraulic oil? thank you. cb

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bobneumann

· #2 · 5 mo ago

I think a hex bit with a ratchet would give you better leverage.

Bob

Reactions: 1

CFB

Discussion Starter · #3 · 5 mo ago

Thank you Bob. This will be a new item for the tool box. I guess I should have figured so, but did not know they sell these in ratchet form.

Maine Willy

· #4 · 5 mo ago

make sure you clean out the hex head well and maybe tap the allen wrench home to ensure a good bite. I have read elsewhere on the site that they can strip out and are difficult to replace.

Best, Willy

Reactions: 3

CFB

Discussion Starter · #5 · 5 mo ago

Thank you Willy. Good advice. Lesson learned quickly as when I first started it did slip out so I did tap it in. The well was clean, but I will double check and purposefully clean all corners before starting again.

Gordy

· #6 · 5 mo ago

Some have had big problems getting these plugs out, and some have not come out. Then you may need to remove the oil return hose going to the oil cooler, at the lower right front corner of the tractor. I have done this and pulled the spark plugs so I could crank the engine and use the pump to push out more oil. NOTE; do NOT run the engine to do this, too high of rpms will quickly remove all oil from the pump and wreck it. ALSO; with Onans it is important to either disconnect power from the coil, or ensure the plug wires are grounded before turning the engine over, some have reported wrecking the coil by not doing this.

I have a Craftsman allen set like this for use with a ratchet.

www.amazon.com

Amazon.com: LEXIVON Master HEX Bit Socket Set, Premium S2 Alloy Steel | Complete 32-Piece, SAE and Metric Set | Enhanced Storage Case (LX-144) : Tools & Home Improvement

Buy LEXIVON Master HEX Bit Socket Set, Premium S2 Alloy Steel | Complete 32-Piece, SAE and Metric Set | Enhanced Storage Case (LX-144): Hex Keys - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

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And a hand operated impact for small stuff, The big electric impact can easily break small stuff

The hand impacts are easy to use, just grip the handle applying force in the direction you want the item to turn and whack the back of the impact with a hammer. There is a ramp inside the tool that gives extra turning force and when that hits the end of its stroke it gives the impact to the threads to loosen them.

www.harborfreight.com

6 Bit Impact Screwdriver Set With Case

Amazing deals on this 6Bit Impact Screwdriver Set W/Case at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

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Cheers,
Gordy

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ras101

· #7 · 5 mo ago

Sorry to be the lone dissenter here guys! we have had sooo many posts about this very issue over the years. Yeah I know full well about the push back by some of here in power about oil types and even after I posted a few long diatribes about this and was told by (Bob) I had no clue about hydraulics that stopped me being a regular contributor) I will say again - stop using r4egualr oil in hydraulics! I have been using Synthetic 5-50 oil in my GTs year round with no change for 4 years (probably go 5 years too) . Never, ever had a problem but also Very important I have more power to!!! Please stop listening to these diehards that want you to stay with 30 year old ideals. I am running two GT winter tractors and that is all I will ever use. Want more winter and summer power from you hydraulics you need to think long and hard about this.. There all many threads on this on this forum. One reason I left was that this subject drove me away and only visit occasionally again. Oh, I live in WNY where we actually get SNOW, and my Case 446, and 444 regularly get used for snow blowing duties for myself and at least 6 of my neighbors. I need an an oil that allows the engine to start easily from cold (I mean the outside temp as mine are stored under cover outside!) . Remember though even the oil chosen that you need a multi-grade. The lower the first number 5-10-20 etc is the cold temp and the high number 20-30-40-50 the high temp. You need the lowest possible cold to start easier and highest figure fore best torque. Your choice guys!!!

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CFB

Discussion Starter · #8 · 5 mo ago

Gordy said:
Some have had big problems getting these plugs out, and some have not come out. Then you may need to remove the oil return hose going to the oil cooler, at the lower right front corner of the tractor. I have done this and pulled the spark plugs so I could crank the engine and use the pump to push out more oil. NOTE; do NOT run the engine to do this, too high of rpms will quickly remove all oil from the pump and wreck it. ALSO; with Onans it is important to either disconnect power from the coil, or ensure the plug wires are grounded before turning the engine over, some have reported wrecking the coil by not doing this.

I have a Craftsman allen set like this for use with a ratchet.

Amazon.com: LEXIVON Master HEX Bit Socket Set, Premium S2 Alloy Steel | Complete 32-Piece, SAE and Metric Set | Enhanced Storage Case (LX-144) : Tools & Home Improvement

Buy LEXIVON Master HEX Bit Socket Set, Premium S2 Alloy Steel | Complete 32-Piece, SAE and Metric Set | Enhanced Storage Case (LX-144): Hex Keys - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

And a hand operated impact for small stuff, The big electric impact can easily break small stuff The hand impacts are easy to use, just grip the handle applying force in the direction you want the item to turn and whack the back of the impact with a hammer. There is a ramp inside the tool that gives extra turning force and when that hits the end of its stroke it gives the impact to the threads to loosen them.

6 Bit Impact Screwdriver Set With Case

Amazing deals on this 6Bit Impact Screwdriver Set W/Case at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

Cheers,
Gordy

Thanks Gordy. maybe I should just pray for nothing below the teens. Thanks too for the links. I was first thinking of just getting the 1/4" but looks like there are other hex plugs too. I guess I won't get it done right away like I was hoping. I was thinking about disconnecting one of the hoses or hard lines but wasn't sure which one but hated messing with them too. I guess I figured too that if I got the majority out that would be better than what I have in it now for winter use. Thanks for the cautions above. cb

Reactions: 2

CFB

Discussion Starter · #9 · 5 mo ago

ras101 said:
Sorry to be the lone dissenter here guys! we have had sooo many posts about this very issue over the years. Yeah I know full well about the push back by some of here in power about oil types and even after I posted a few long diatribes about this and was told by (Bob) I had no clue about hydraulics that stopped me being a regular contributor) I will say again - stop using r4egualr oil in hydraulics! I have been using Synthetic 5-50 oil in my GTs year round with no change for 4 years (probably go 5 years too) . Never, ever had a problem but also Very important I have more power to!!! Please stop listening to these diehards that want you to stay with 30 year old ideals. I am running two GT winter tractors and that is all I will ever use. Want more winter and summer power from you hydraulics you need to think long and hard about this.. There all many threads on this on this forum. One reason I left was that this subject drove me away and only visit occasionally again. Oh, I live in WNY where we actually get SNOW, and my Case 446, and 444 regularly get used for snow blowing duties for myself and at least 6 of my neighbors. I need an an oil that allows the engine to start easily from cold (I mean the outside temp as mine are stored under cover outside!) . Remember though even the oil chosen that you need a multi-grade. The lower the first number 5-10-20 etc is the cold temp and the high number 20-30-40-50 the high temp. You need the lowest possible cold to start easier and highest figure fore best torque. Your choice guys!!!

Thank you for chiming in again. There usually is another side to the story.
Just to clarify or confirm. You use the 5-50 in the hydraulics and it is synthetic? So it is still motor oil but full synthetic rather than hydraulic advertised oil.
At the end of your comment you speak of an oil that allows the engine to start easily. What weight do you use in the engine. And is it full synthetic of a blend? or does the weight of the hydraulic oil impact how the engine starts ( I did not think there was a connection between the two)? thank you. cb

Reactions: 1

ras101

· #10 · 5 mo ago

CFB, yeah I only use regular oil and full synthetic. I use 5/50 only in my hydraulics all year round! the only time I change is for age and not temperature/season. There have been many conversations here about this so a quick search should bring those up. Oil weight of both engine oil and hydraulic oil accounts for the resistance effects the load/resistance on the engine when starting besides other things. also after starting the higher oil number effects the capability of the torque can produce. I explained this over 2 years ago on this forum and there was quite a discussion on it. The end result is no one needs to change their oil by season!, no one should using conventional oil in hydraulics either. That the lower the R value initially, certainly less than 10 for oil during northern climates the better and the higher the normal operating temp the high the available torque too. Just know when you hear the range of oil, like 5/50 etc.. that 5 means starting temperature and resistance to starting and 50 means the torque availbale for use when the engine warms.

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ras101

· #11 · 5 mo ago

BTW, I am currently using Mobile ! 5/50. I changing about every 5 years!

ras101

· #12 · 5 mo ago

Oh another thing I hear as push back is that - well the engine needs this.... guess what the engine is a totally different beast to the hydraulics! For me a couple (yeah I have 4 Case tractors now) use 30 weight oil _ anyone recently tried to get that oil? oh its available for a premium but totally unnecessary too, mainly ONAN engines. So what do you use so form of multi grade right? so why should we change hydrualics. Just try getting the hydraulic fluid (read regular oil here) for the hydraulics!!!

Reactions: 1

Gordy

· #13 · 5 mo ago

CFB said:
Thank you for chiming in again. There usually is another side to the story.
Just to clarify or confirm. You use the 5-50 in the hydraulics and it is synthetic? So it is still motor oil but full synthetic rather than hydraulic advertised oil.
At the end of your comment you speak of an oil that allows the engine to start easily. What weight do you use in the engine. And is it full synthetic of a blend? or does the weight of the hydraulic oil impact how the engine starts ( I did not think there was a connection between the two)? thank you. cb

Many hear will avoid oil discussions, as they can get as bad as political or religious discussions.

In past discussions, it was said that the hydraulics use engine rated oil because of the design of the drive motor on the rear axle. Standard hydraulic is said to have less lubrication capability than engine oil. My 224 came to me with true hydraulic oil in the hydraulic system, I replaced it with Shell Rotella 15-40. I can tell you that under heavy load (tilling) the oil ran cooler and the tractor had more power to the ground and to the tiller.

When cold starting the hydraulics definitely add resistance to the starter and the engine turns over slower. My Simplicities have a belt driven hydrostatic rear end, and the brake pedal does dual duty, first it pulls the belt tensioner back so the belt is no longer engaged then the brake is applied. Applying the brakes on a cold start makes a huge difference in engine cranking speed of the Simplicity.

Standard dyno oil in the engine can also be a source of resistance in cold starts. I did a test with regular 10-30 and Mobile-1 full synthetic 10-40 at -10f, the test was simply to vigorously shake the jugs next to my ears. The 10-30 made a gulping sound, while the 10-40 sounded more like water splashing around. The cold cranking speed of the engine is a lot higher at -10f with the 10-40 than it was with the 10-30.

Now the oil you use will depend on your average coldest temps you expect to see, and if you can keep the tractor in a heated garage like some do, say 40f. Also if your tractor has some minor oil seepage that will likely increase with lighter oils.

Cheers,
Gordy

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Gordy

· #14 · 5 mo ago

ras101 said:
Oh another thing I hear as push back is that - well the engine needs this.... guess what the engine is a totally different beast to the hydraulics! For me a couple (yeah I have 4 Case tractors now) use 30 weight oil _ anyone recently tried to get that oil? oh its available for a premium but totally unnecessary too, mainly ONAN engines. So what do you use so form of multi grade right? so why should we change hydrualics. Just try getting the hydraulic fluid (read regular oil here) for the hydraulics!!!

Hear in MN farm country, 30W is readily available at Walmart. By the quart in the small engine are is very expensive, but in the big jugs not so bad. My Walmart carries 3 brands of 30W (all heavy duty diesel), the store brand, Shell Rotella and Mobil Delvac.

Cheers
Gordy

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ras101

· #15 · 5 mo ago

So Gordy I have used Rotella 6 synthetic 10-40 oil in my hydraulics in a 446 with 18HP B&S engine and electric clutch for winter use and J46 snow blower for several years. The torque is well above using conventional oil stated in the Case manual, and the GT sits outside under a cover all winter at sometimes temps down to -5 or so. Over the last 3 years I have changed to Mobile 1 5-50 as it provides even easier starts and a higher torque too. Either will work fine. The GT turns over, almost like it's summer, and starts easily! I change my hydraulic oil about every 2-3 years, just because I get to check for leaks etc, not because it really needs it! Oh, BTW in my engine, B&S 18HP, I use 0-20 synthetic too and change every couple of years. Why synthetic guys? Because the oil weight is constant and predictable as its part of the manufacturing process and are constant through the temperature range. Natural oils (if thats the right word ) need to be created by additives and are unpredictable throughout the temperature range and ONLY hit the weight at a specified temperature. Going to stop there guys, just know I did my research over almost 2 years to get here but it's true that oil wars erupt here as everone has their own take on this.

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CFB

Discussion Starter · #16 · 5 mo ago

ras101 said:
So Gordy I have used Rotella 6 synthetic 10-40 oil in my hydraulics in a 446 with 18HP B&S engine and electric clutch for winter use and J46 snow blower for several years. The torque is well above using conventional oil stated in the Case manual, and the GT sits outside under a cover all winter at sometimes temps down to -5 or so. Over the last 3 years I have changed to Mobile 1 5-50 as it provides even easier starts and a higher torque too. Either will work fine. The GT turns over, almost like it's summer, and starts easily! I change my hydraulic oil about every 2-3 years, just because I get to check for leaks etc, not because it really needs it! Oh, BTW in my engine, B&S 18HP, I use 0-20 synthetic too and change every couple of years. Why synthetic guys? Because the oil weight is constant and predictable as its part of the manufacturing process and are constant through the temperature range. Natural oils (if thats the right word ) need to be created by additives and are unpredictable throughout the temperature range and ONLY hit the weight at a specified temperature. Going to stop there guys, just know I did my research over almost 2 years to get here but it's true that oil wars erupt here as everone has their own take on this.

Hi again and Happy New Year!
I'm going to reply to each member separately just to try and make it simple for myself if that is possible.
I live in Cleveland, OH and I have the tractor in an unheated attached garage so it does go below freezing inside.
I am leaning toward the synthetic oil. I saw an ad by a Subaru dealer that for their cars , and their engines may be totally different from a tractor engine, but they recommend changing from the conventional oil to full or at least a blended synthetic. Natural or regular or conventional (assuming all those terms are synonymous) have impurities that eventually wear the engine - I think they used the term sludge, whereas, synthetics and man-made and consistent.
I did find a few 2014 threads on this topic with several members discussing the research. I'm sure I did not comprehend it all.

I think my father-in-law had the engine replaced but I think still Onan.

For the hydraulics, I did get 5W20 initially from Autozone but am able to return it. But they only have 5w40. Do you think that is okay or should I try for a 50 weight? (I do have some confusion on this. I think I get the 5w for easier winter starting. But if the 50 is for better summer high temp performance, seems like a 20 as the manual suggests (as thinner than 30) would perform better in winter. Or does the temp of the hydraulics get so hot that the 50works better no matter if summer or winter?

And for the engine oil, you state 0w20 in your B&S. Is that what you would recommend for my 448 Onan?
Thanks for your time. I really appreciate it.

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CFB

Discussion Starter · #17 · 5 mo ago

ras101 said:
Oh another thing I hear as push back is that - well the engine needs this.... guess what the engine is a totally different beast to the hydraulics! For me a couple (yeah I have 4 Case tractors now) use 30 weight oil _ anyone recently tried to get that oil? oh its available for a premium but totally unnecessary too, mainly ONAN engines. So what do you use so form of multi grade right? so why should we change hydrualics. Just try getting the hydraulic fluid (read regular oil here) for the hydraulics!!!

sorry I should have included this in the last thread of a few minutes ago. I was a little confused here. Is there a difference then in what you use for the engine oil in an Onan -sounds like 30 weight per above versus B&S - below comment of 0w20? I have bought 30 weight in a jug that I did not consider too expensive. I'm on the fence now if I'm going to change the engine oil - but think I should for an easier start. It started really easy last week when it was minus 4 but it happened so fast that the garage was still above freezing, even though unheated. thanks.

CFB

Discussion Starter · #18 · 5 mo ago

CFB said:
Thanks Gordy. maybe I should just pray for nothing below the teens. Thanks too for the links. I was first thinking of just getting the 1/4" but looks like there are other hex plugs too. I guess I won't get it done right away like I was hoping. I was thinking about disconnecting one of the hoses or hard lines but wasn't sure which one but hated messing with them too. I guess I figured too that if I got the majority out that would be better than what I have in it now for winter use. Thanks for the cautions above. cb

I found a nice youtube on changing the hydraulic oil from CaseIngersoll tractors Northeast that changed by your alternative of removing the hose. I think I will do that. He did disconnect the spark plugs and then cranked the engine to push out the oil and also moved the travel lever back and forth to also remove - that was also done after filling to "bleed" the system, but said there usually isn't much bleeding necessary. But he did not mention the caution about the coil. I've never dealt with that and not sure where it is even. 1. regarding disconnecting power to the coil - is that just taking off a positive wire? 2. regarding grounding the spark plug wire that was taken off - is that like attaching an alligator clip to it with the other end to the frame? thank you. Happy New Year cb

Reactions: 1

ras101

· #19 · 5 mo ago

CFB said:
Hi again and Happy New Year!
I'm going to reply to each member separately just to try and make it simple for myself if that is possible.
I live in Cleveland, OH and I have the tractor in an unheated attached garage so it does go below freezing inside.
I am leaning toward the synthetic oil. I saw an ad by a Subaru dealer that for their cars , and their engines may be totally different from a tractor engine, but they recommend changing from the conventional oil to full or at least a blended synthetic. Natural or regular or conventional (assuming all those terms are synonymous) have impurities that eventually wear the engine - I think they used the term sludge, whereas, synthetics and man-made and consistent.
I did find a few 2014 threads on this topic with several members discussing the research. I'm sure I did not comprehend it all.

I think my father-in-law had the engine replaced but I think still Onan.

For the hydraulics, I did get 5W20 initially from Autozone but am able to return it. But they only have 5w40. Do you think that is okay or should I try for a 50 weight? (I do have some confusion on this. I think I get the 5w for easier winter starting. But if the 50 is for better summer high temp performance, seems like a 20 as the manual suggests (as thinner than 30) would perform better in winter. Or does the temp of the hydraulics get so hot that the 50works better no matter if summer or winter?

And for the engine oil, you state 0w20 in your B&S. Is that what you would recommend for my 448 Onan?
Thanks for your time. I really appreciate it.

Hi, you should go with 5/50 or at least 5/40 in the hydraulic system, using 5/20 will severely limit your available talk

ROCKLAND VALLEY

· #20 · 5 mo ago

CFB said:
I found a nice youtube on changing the hydraulic oil from CaseIngersoll tractors Northeast that changed by your alternative of removing the hose. I think I will do that. He did disconnect the spark plugs and then cranked the engine to push out the oil and also moved the travel lever back and forth to also remove - that was also done after filling to "bleed" the system, but said there usually isn't much bleeding necessary. But he did not mention the caution about the coil. I've never dealt with that and not sure where it is even. 1. regarding disconnecting power to the coil - is that just taking off a positive wire? 2. regarding grounding the spark plug wire that was taken off - is that like attaching an alligator clip to it with the other end to the frame? thank you. Happy New Year cb

I Was going to link the video but seen you found our video lol. You can use many different options as we stated in the video and will have good results. If its in the budget we recommend Scheaffers synthetic oil over anything else for engine, hydraulics, grease etc. In the engines we prefer 5-40, 15-40 or 20-50 synthetic "racing" or "diesel" oils. But not everyone has the budget to do so. But synthetics are preferred. But every one has their opinions and many of them work. Many argue that diesel oil or racing oil is not needed.... well Again lots of things will get the job done...But some get it done better and for longer. "GOOD" Racing and diesel oil have many advantages. One being very high levels of zinc, high zinc is needed for flat tappet engines as it helps greatly with metal to metal contact and impact as well as lubing including gear contact like in pumps and motors, gear boxs etc... Also racing and diesel oil is designed for high temps and stressful environments (IE hard working diesels and racing engines) very much like any air cooled small engine. I will say above all and type, weight etc. clean, cool oil is the most important of all things. Thanks for watching our videos too.

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