[Hydriv]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

Jim,
You need to stop making up these fantasy conversations. I'm getting PM's from other members who are "wondering" about you. :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

 

[Bart]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

For what it's worth, I've spoken to Brian in the past and he is very generous with his time and advice which is very good. In addition to a lot of hands on experience working on Kohlers, Brian is an engineer who understands the theory and design of the engines.

I've ordered a few parts from him and would happily do business with him anytime--just too bad he doesn't live a few hundred miles closer!

For anyone who might try to call him, you should understand that he prefers to communicate by email.

 

[Bart]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

One of our other Kohler experts, Bob Merkler, has recommended leaving the balance gears in for larger Kohlers. Since I respect the opinions of both Bob and Brian I would be interested in more discussion of the issue of the balance gears. One has to wonder why there are there if they serve no useful purpose? Is there something else that should be done to compensate for removing them? Is the advice different for pulling engines than for stock engines? Was this an engineering mis-step by Kohler?

 

[t444vt]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

Some Kohler K series came from the factory without balance gears. For example my 1966 Cub Cadet K301 does not have them, as I recall from when I rebuilt it, it does not even have the stub shafts to install them.

When I rebuilt the K321 in my 444 I left them out after reading Brian Millers page. Seem to be fine without them.

 

[Hydriv]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

One of our other Kohler experts, Bob Merkler, has recommended leaving the balance gears in for larger Kohlers. Since I respect the opinions of both Bob and Brian I would be interested in more discussion of the issue of the balance gears. One has to wonder why there are there if they serve no useful purpose? Is there something else that should be done to compensate for removing them? Is the advice different for pulling engines than for stock engines? Was this an engineering mis-step by Kohler?

The balance gears do serve a purpose or Kohler would not have put them in there. As I understand it, their influence is supposed to take place at idle speeds to smooth out the pulses from the power stroke. Once the engine rpm picks up to a certain point, there is no benefit. Apparently, this was an optional extra that could be ordered by OEM's who wanted to offer a slightly smoother running engine that produced less low end vibration. As mentioned, some blocks had no balance gears installed on the shafts, while other blocks did not even have the shafts. If they were 100 percent essential, then all K and M engines would have come with them.

Let's see what Brian Miller has to say on the subject.

 

[mrfixit82852]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

Like it has been posted, some Kohler K series and Magnums did not come with balance gears in them. For someone who plans on using a tractor for mowing or other purposes like it, balance gears do make a much better riding tractor. Less vibration.

But for those who plan on using these engines for tractor pulling, and most likely rev the engine past it's recommended 3600 rpm's. removing the balance gears is the way to go. If a balance gear let's loose it can blast right through the side of the block.

However, it is not recommended to rev a engine past the recommended rpm.

I have been told by the Kohler Rep. that they do test the Magnum series engines at 4400 rpm's, because some of the Walker mowers need to run at that rpm to get the blade speed where it needs to be.

But running a K series engine over 3600 is dangerous, the cast iron flywheel can blow apart. The Magnum series flywheel is different. Also has plastic cooling fins on it, instead of cast iron.

but that is what I have done in the past to eliminate any chance of the balance gears blowing apart and coming through the block.

Joe

 

[robynrj]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

While I respect Brian's option alot. on this I do not. While some Cub's may not have them, was it a cost cutting reason they were not spec'd...I do not know. But as Joe said on a home owner tractor not used in competeion, it will be a smoother engine. The point that parts are old and can fail....yes guess so but a 25 yr crankshaft are reused and yes they fail at times. If the parts needed are replaced in bal gears, I will do it. So it it necessary to put them back in and get another 20-25 yrs...NO. But like your wife, if you have to LIVE with it along time, smooth is better!
Now are the alum rods supplied "good enough".....yes I think so, but I might very upgrade it by sending to Brian for rod inserts.....a good extra investment IMHO. Bob M

 

[Stewart]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

FWIW

In 1998 I had the local Kohler Dealer ( Est 1936 ) fix my 224-79 which had run out of oil. :headscratcher:

He claimed that his Father who opened the business had been removing the balance gears for years. I would get the full Kohler warranty without the gears, and that's what I did. So I guess that these gears have been a problem for some.

I never noticed any extra vibrations and it's still in good shape today. :thumbsup:

I was on holidays and my FIL forgot to replace the dipstick after checking the oil before cutting my grass.

Stewart

 

[Billygoat]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

http://www.manuals.casecoltingersoll.co ... marked.pdf

Go here, look at page 14 & 15

 

[Rockdog]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

Based on that page they quit using them after stated tractor PINs. Is that when they went to rubber mounted engines?

Balance Shafts are used exstensively in the automotive industry (or at least WERE). Its a band-aid to 'fix' perceived NVH concerns. People dont return business when the tractor they paid for makes there rear end numb after half and hour. They only do that with Harleys.

More parts means more potential for failure. And I believe they are 'tuned' to a certain RPM range and then outside of that they're just added mass.

 

[Billygoat]

Re: conversation with Brian Miller about removal of balance

Is that when they went to rubber mounted engines?

http://www.manuals.casecoltingersoll.co ... marked.pdf
Page 28 & 29 Looks like all the PINs this manual covers came with rubber mounted engines. I haven't checked the manual(s) for preceeding PINs.