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Differences of opinion.

4462 Views 20 Replies 15 Participants Last post by  glc, 
H
If you have been reading my posts for any length of time, then you probably concluded that i like these tractors........... a lot. I won't go into the reasons in this thread because all that matters is that I really, really like them to the point of collecting them.

I have been known to occasionally voice my most humble opinion about those who buy up all makes of tractors, tear them to pieces and sell off the parts. I have also been known to "go off" when I see someone intentionally "violate" a Colt, Case or ingersoll tractor.

List of violations

- putting a yellow seat on a CCI tractor

- painting a CCI tractor a non-OEM colour

- installing antlers or steer horns on the hood

For the most part, i am what some people would call a "purist", however I am not against well executed modifications. Tractors by caseracer and Phaon come to mind as do the creations made by whipny1.

I also understand that not everyone sees a garden tractor the same way I do. To some people, an old GT is nothing more than another tool in the shed. It's something you buy at a garage or yard sale, bring home and do whatever you need to, in order to make it work for you. And if you can't make it work any longer, then it's off to the scrap yard without a thought as to whether there is still value remaining in the butchered carcass.

As many of you know, the Mods at MTF got many complaints about my outspokenness whenever I saw threads like this one.

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=201608

The OP has not stated that he is making a Pulling Tractor so I have to wonder what purpose this sad looking Lo Pro is now good for. Installing a vertical shaft engine signals the end of the hydraulic mid-mount lift and operating any belt driven attachments. Once upon a time, there were tractors that only had a drawbar. Those tractors took the place of a team of heavy horses. Later tractors came with a large pulley that would power other items thanks to a wide, flat belt. Many other improvements were made to the common tractor to broaden its uses on the farm and many of those filtered down to the Case garden tractor. So when I see a thread like that one, which essentially sends a good tractor back to the stone age of tractor development, it makes me shake my head.

And then there is the personality that has no respect for the tractor they own in spite of raving what a fantastic machine it is. These people will hack, cut, weld, drill and bolt stuff togther in order to meld foreign attachments to the tractor. A Sears 3 pt is lever operated. Sears uses their own proprietary implements. They are not CAT 0, which is the universally accepted standard used by everyone else. The Sears and Craftsman tractors are very popular. Go to any broad-based forum and activity on the Craftsman forum is higher than the Case forum. Suburbans and the attachments are in demand. So why ruin a perfectly good Sears 3 pt ? Why not sell off these Sears items and use the money to purchase OEM items for the Case that you now profess to love so much?

If any of you didn't understand the point I was trying to make in the Classified's section regarding the 2710 Colt, then I can't offer a more convincing witness than the owner himself in this thread.

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=202095

Feel free to comment whether you agree or disagree.
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1 - 20 of 21 Posts
old abe
Mehh.
Freedom of expression is something I'll gladly keep, if it means turning a blind eye to some things - so be it.
Heck, I'm stuffing a briggs 12 in my 118 (but doing it so its all revesible, and unobtrusive).

But to each his own, when you see someone messing up a nice CCI, try to step back take a deep breath (maybe a beer) and just be glad that it's not yours.

Everybody's different, if you cant live with the differences it's going to make your blood boil. Just like your little nephew timmy (who likes to eat paint chips) you learn to live with 'em, because you cant kill 'em.

My position, do what mods you will, but on something cool like a CCI, make it reversible. (unless it's a really nice job like the ones you mentioned)
A 1992 craftsman rider with a Tecumseh?...go ahead do what you will.
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R
To me it depends on the machine. If its pretty much trashed to begin with and not 'restorable' or very common then go ahead and have some fun or at least dont do something that isnt reversible. I say this cause I'm not as passionate about lawn tractors as I am about say cars, boats, houses.
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wurkenman
I can relate to your distaste in hacking things up. That being said, I use my tractors year round. If I happen to have a 'PINK' seat that will work and doesn't cost me anything to be comfortable, then pink it is. Just like the hole I cut in the side of my dash tower to allow access to the oil tank. Obviously the access panel only allows access to the back of the control lever rods. NO HELP there. My tractors are working machines and I need them to be operational. I will do whatever is easiest to obtain results. If I get to the point of collecting and restoring, then the outcome will be different.
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Snotrocket
I think that there is a big difference between a working tractor and a collector piece. I hacked up my cab a bit, cut a piece off an engine tin, my hood is held down by latches etc etc. All of that is to make and keep it functional.

That doesn't mean I want it to lose the look and style of a Case GT just that it's ability to mow my grass, blow some snow comes first.

It sucks seeing something parted out that could be saved, but it's their property so they can part it, race it, do whatever the hell they want to with it.
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ArticIngerCase
I normally try to hold my tongue when I see things like what you mentioned. Besides, who am I to criticize? I purchased a very restorable 1987 446, and tore it apart to "hack" together my articulated loader. Ok, I didn't exactly "hack" it together. It was more like a well thought out creation. But none the less, to a purist, I parted out a tractor.

I do however own a relatively stock 1994 Ingersoll 4016 with 750+ hours that are all mine and I wouldn't even dream of "hacking" it apart, or doing anything to it that didn't look factory.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that sometimes people need to part out these tractors in order to give something else new life. It's not up to me to judge them.
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bobneumann
The only thing I can think of that would bother me is when someone takes one make and tries to turn it into another. I you like John Deere, then go get a John Deere. Don't paint your poor Case green... If not for the sake of the tractor, then for your own pride's sake.

As far as steer horns go: I paid good money for them, they're too heavy for my bicycle, and the wife won't let me put them on the minivan. So they HAVE to go on my Case!!!! :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh:

Bob
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cp7
A Sears three point is about a hundred bucks where a Case is four or better and with good reason. Other than cutting that big ars lift lever off it doesn't sound like he hurt much and shouldn't have had to hack on the Case at all (at least not for this project). Like you say the Sears isn't a Cat 0 but since fletch is going to be using the Sears implements it should work.
I want to see how he's going to lift it like a sleeve hitch.
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InTroubleAlltheTime
We should always be free to voice our opinion in a respectful manner. I want to relate my comments to this the Forum with what I am trying to say. My tractors are combination working/collectors tractors. I want to maintain them as original as possible. I am a later model power red dude, (646 too) all of my tractors are suitable for work.In the future when I have more time I may purchase an older Case or even a Colt or a Black Knight just to collect . But what will my power red/646 tractors be in term of collectables in 50 years? It's the right thing to do to keep them original. However I am not insane about it. When I did a partial restoration on my 1986 446 I didn't readily have the decals available I needed. I settled for a later year and I am perfectly pleased with the results. But that is purely cosmetic and can be easily changed. My 1983 224 is in real good shape just as it is, I would never think of re-painting it at this time. But if you want to restore a tractor solely as a collectable, it should be as exact to original as possible. My 646 was abused but I am trying to bring it back in line, but I doubt it will be ever completely original. But it will likely remain primarily a working tractor. My thoughts:

1. Messing with a complete original tractor in good to excellent condition is terrible. Parting one out is a travesty. Thought is the long term loss to all as a collectable.
2. Mechanical modifications should be avoided. I am of the understanding that the engineers have designed the tractors with longevity, reliability and safety involved. Yes, you can get hurt on these tractors! Also the devil the is in the details with changes to design, engine choice. Recognize some engine changes may be by necessity, however.
3. Tractors in poor shape are ripe to be saved. Not crazy about parting out in any case, but yes I buy used parts too.
4. Some modifications are very pleasing, T-90, articulated, tricycle, but I think it should be from a saved tractor. Should be well thought out from a safety/design perspective.
5. Improvements to function such as point saver, hydraulic filter is all acceptable.

This group is diverse. We have serious collectors, racers, working tractors enthusiasts and combinations. We should never be afraid to point out a wrong in one's own opinion in a respectful manner. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

That's my two cents Thank you.
:222: :446: Best Regards, Rich
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Stewart
There's a difference in my own opinion.
Maybe the fact that I've had my 224-79 for 30 years and had a 3 spool valve bolted to my right fender, hooked up to a craftsman blade and my sleeve hitch, I was in heaven for the 20 years of using that blade. :thumbsup: The spool valve had a maximum flow of 4.5 GPM and I got used to the slow ride and hot hydraulic oil :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: And yes I had the spool plumbed into the rear Pto :trink:

Now

Only time will tell how pure I go with my 224-79.

My goal is a working Trailer Queen. :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh:
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G
I haven't even bought my first tractor yet. When I get to that point, I was going to look for a later model unmolested one and rebuild it to original specs. My original thinking was that it will not be for collection, but will be used as a working tractor. However, even though my equipment stays in pristine condition, (30 years as an aircraft mechanic will do that to a person) I am having second thoughts about going this route for several reasons:

1. Ingersoll needs to sell new tractors to stay in business.

2. Buying a premium used one like the demonstrator Brian has advertised on his website at Salem Power would probably be no more expensive (possibly cheaper) than restoring one for work and still allows Ingersoll to sell another new one somewhere.

3. As stated in an above post, everything is engineered to work together as originally sold. Just about any modification results in a cascade of other "problems" that have to be resolved.

4. Hacking a restorable machine up just seems wrong. :cry:

I'm not able to buy new cars. I have to look for good used. When I go shopping for one, it has to be completely original. If I see that emissions systems or anything else has been "Shade Treed", :sidelaugh: I walk away. It will generally never run "right". When I go to car shows, nothing drives me crazier :crazy: than seeing a nice '32 Ford Coupe with a Bowtie engine in it. I could understand this if there weren't many Ford engines left, but that, of course, can't be used as an excuse. Onan's aren't cheap to rebuild. For those like me, who want a working tractor, I've pretty much convinced myself that buying a premium 3-4 year old one is the best route to go especially considering that there's a manufacturer still producing what I need. :thumbsup:

So, for me, it comes down to this: If it's no longer being produced, restore and use it in parades, pulling kids around the neighborhood, etc. If it's still being produced and supported, (like Ingersoll), buy a new one if you can. :usa: If that's too rich, like it is for me right now, shop for a really good 3-4 year old pre-owned and keep it pristine as it will eventually become a collectable too!
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G
This is an on going topic in our house right now. I tend to be more of a purist, but my 15 year old and I are working on an old 224 (Thanks ING6018) that is for her and she has made it clear she doesn't care about the factory colors. She has already decreed the machine will have a yellow seat, and an orange hood, she would like all orange sheet metal, and some design like the mystery machine from Scooby Doo on the wheels. I am trying to get her to settle for just yellow rims. Orange and yellow are her favorite colors. She at least backed off some of the paint ideas she had. We did agree to at least save the original sheet metal as it is in good shape and have picked up other parts for the non standard colors, sothe mcahine can be returned to its proper state in the future with minimal rework. Even if it did go factory colors we were making some concessions to what is available for certain things. For instance the muffler will be one of Jim Danzer's repoductions for the earlier machines as the 73 style isn't available. And we are discussion going with the plastic gas tank to reduce the chances of rust through.

I will admit that yellow seat that came on of the machines I got which is going hers, is much more comfortable than any of the black ones we have, but it is also a pain to keep clean so she can have it as I don't see her working the machine that hard.

Even though I have benefited from the some pristine machines being parted out it does pain me to see that happened with the beaters that are out there.
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H
She will only be 15 once in her life so why not go whole hog with the paint job? After all.... at the end of the day.... it is only paint and all of it can be stripped off later on. The flower petal wheels could be done if dad made up some smooth wheel discs for it. Spot weld four L brackets to the rims and screw the discs into them. If the yellow seat works with the rest of the color scheme, then by all means, use it. At 15, I'm surprised at the Scooby-Doo theme. I thought that she would be more into Lady Gaga.
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Caseman2
Where I can relate to someone with limited resources (which is perhaps a good reason to stick with one brand) I had one of these Craftsman 3 points and there is just no comparison, there is a big difference from the Case to the Craftsman.

It won't look right and will be noticable, and if it don't work right then there will be more trial by error - hacking.

He could sell off the Craftsman implements and then buy Case implements, he doesn't have to buy them all overnight if money was an issue or could get a sleeve hitch or go all out and get a Case 3 point with sleeve hitch adapter and then convert the Sears stuff to cat 0 as I did with my Craftsman backblade - but there is a of work with doing that.
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G
Tom,

I think we can do the flower design as you suggested. She has been a Scooby Doo fan since she was little. As for the paint compromise the problem was the design she wanted to do is beyond our capabilities with the detail she wanted.

GLC
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Phaon
My own opinion on this is rather complex (and thanks for the shout out btw, much appreciated :smile: ). I was in the middle of a true restoration on my 155 when a garage fire destroyed many of the original parts. I decided to go with light mods, but have since obtained all the original replacements, including hood decals. I could have my 155 100% factory original in 30 minutes.

However, 155's are a dime a dozen - just check in the classifieds right now. I can assure you that my 120 and 130 will be perfect restorations. My take on this is - if a tractor is common enough that a purist can easily obtain one, then you're not really robbing the world. Yet. Of course, all of these will continue to get more rare as time goes by. As of right now, a 155 is the only 100 series I would hack, as pretty much all the others have started getting difficult to find in nice shape, low priced, and geographically close.

I guess it comes down to the idea that if no one else is being harmed, who cares. There's still a gazillion 222's for sale out there, so I just cringe a little and keep my mouth shut. Someone hacks up a 180 though, and I'll start boiling over.

Chris
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ING6018
Earlier this year I ran across a 224 on the local Craigslist. I knew Galen might be interested. It was closer to me and he was out of town working. When he told me he was looking for a project for his daughter, it made it even more important to make the deal work.

A couple weeks later, Galen drove up with his family to pick up the tractor. Out of the car jumps this bright-eyed girl with a firm handshake and million dollar smile. Made my day.

Bottom line: With prep and care, any color paint will help protect and preserve the tractor. Some day, after it has served its purpose, it can be returned to its heritage.

Let that girl paint!
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Caseman2
Speaking of modifications check out the custom steering on this 446 :mrgreen: .

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=202468
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R
Pretty cool set up. Thats one way to get the slop out your steering. If you had the right pump you could set yourself up easily with power steering that way.
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oefveteran
Sorry to bump such an old thread, but did youever finish that tractor for your daughter?
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