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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I have been working on the tractor, just haven't posted for a while.
Last pic was the frame I'm using, I extended the frame 7 inches because I have long legs and need room for power steering. This tractor will never cut grass again, so turning radius is not important. I cut the back end off the donor tractor and welded them together. I also reinforced the frame on the inside.
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I bolted the differentials on to check fit and see if front and rear height differ,they did. I had to raise the back
2 1/2 inches.
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In this pic you can see the front differential mount, it allows the from to pivot like the axle did. Needs a little reinforcing yet.
The next step was to mount the orbital valve for the power steering. The valve was too wide to keep the controls in their original position, so I had to move them.
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Steering valve mount and new battery tray. I'm working on linkage now.
I have not figured how too mount a snow blade yet as the the front drive is in the way,I'll have to wait until the front end is mounted and see what kind of room I have to work with.
Question for Scotticy, how big of a pump did you use to run two hyd motors at a reasonable speed and now that you have done it, would you change anything?
Does anyone have any opinions on LIFAN engines? I can get a 24 hp for $900.
Thanks Bill
 

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What is the end game for the tractor? What will it be used for? Only reason I ask is because the front tires looks very far forward and won’t allow for factory accessories to mount to the front.
Also make sure the front is built up strong enough because there will be a lot of torque on that front mount.

tractor looks great so far.
 

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Bill,
For the snowblade, I'd cut the front 12-14" (or whatever it takes) off the other frame and weld it on the front of this one to get the quick hitch parts out in front of the axle. The lift link may not work even when lengthened, so you may need to move the lift cylinder up front.

Cheers,
Gordy
 

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That thing is screaming all wheel steer. You might as well make a rear steer axle while your there. I've read somewhere that Lifan was contracted to make Honda engines. After copywrite and patents were over they started making Honda clones. I'd put one in a custom build like yours. I do believe there is ones with higher amperage charge outputs so pay attention to that. Can we get some better pics of the front end how you have it now? It does look forward from stock location?

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
JRP1 answer, the picture does not show the correct position of the front axle, the jack is holding it level. I did that to get height measurements front to back. When finishes, the axle tubes will be in the same place as the factory axle was. The main use will be to plow snow, I live on the side of a hill, my driveway is 22 Degrees and it is hard to plow uphill.
Gordy answer, the quick hitch is not a problem, the lower mount that hung down, took most of the strain. I have to find a way that the frame is taking the stain and not the quick hitch but the front differential is in the way.
Jancoe answer, there are three Lifan 24 hp for sale one for $901, $939 they have 6 amp charging circuits and one for $957, it has a 24 amp circuit. I'm still working on the front end.
As you see in the pic, I have the frame on a rack. I,m trying to do as much as I can before I mount the front/rear differentials,once mounted I'll have to work on the floor.
I got the TCV controls installed today, it makes it easy when you can turn the frame upside down.
Bill
 

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I have been working on the tractor, just haven't posted for a while.
Last pic was the frame I'm using, I extended the frame 7 inches because I have long legs and need room for power steering. This tractor will never cut grass again, so turning radius is not important. I cut the back end off the donor tractor and welded them together. I also reinforced the frame on the inside. View attachment 127573 View attachment 127574 View attachment 127575
I bolted the differentials on to check fit and see if front and rear height differ,they did. I had to raise the back
2 1/2 inches. View attachment 127576 View attachment 127577
In this pic you can see the front differential mount, it allows the from to pivot like the axle did. Needs a little reinforcing yet.
The next step was to mount the orbital valve for the power steering. The valve was too wide to keep the controls in their original position, so I had to move them. View attachment 127578 View attachment 127579
Steering valve mount and new battery tray. I'm working on linkage now.
I have not figured how too mount a snow blade yet as the the front drive is in the way,I'll have to wait until the front end is mounted and see what kind of room I have to work with.
Question for Scotticy, how big of a pump did you use to run two hyd motors at a reasonable speed and now that you have done it, would you change anything?
Does anyone have any opinions on LIFAN engines? I can get a 24 hp for $900.
Thanks Bill
On my tractor I am running two pumps, two valves, two coolers and two tanks. Two separate systems hooked to one lever. You stated you were going to plow snow in your driveway. I would think running a series circuit would be better for that application. Unless a lot of extra tire spinning doesn’t bother you cause with mine which ever end breaks traction first doesn’t care that the other end isn’t moving yet. That might get hairy on a icy hill. In series circuit both ends can only go the same speed. One factory pump would run that just fine, a bigger pump would increase your ground speed in that setup. I used two separate systems on mine to basically double the psi doubling the pulling power.
 

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I have been working on the tractor, just haven't posted for a while.
Last pic was the frame I'm using, I extended the frame 7 inches because I have long legs and need room for power steering. This tractor will never cut grass again, so turning radius is not important. I cut the back end off the donor tractor and welded them together. I also reinforced the frame on the inside. View attachment 127573 View attachment 127574 View attachment 127575
I bolted the differentials on to check fit and see if front and rear height differ,they did. I had to raise the back
2 1/2 inches. View attachment 127576 View attachment 127577
In this pic you can see the front differential mount, it allows the from to pivot like the axle did. Needs a little reinforcing yet.
The next step was to mount the orbital valve for the power steering. The valve was too wide to keep the controls in their original position, so I had to move them. View attachment 127578 View attachment 127579
Steering valve mount and new battery tray. I'm working on linkage now.
I have not figured how too mount a snow blade yet as the the front drive is in the way,I'll have to wait until the front end is mounted and see what kind of room I have to work with.
Question for Scotticy, how big of a pump did you use to run two hyd motors at a reasonable speed and now that you have done it, would you change anything?
Does anyone have any opinions on LIFAN engines? I can get a 24 hp for $900.
Thanks Bill
If I were to change anything it would be to run my second pump belt drive not chain drive but there is just not enough space in a factory tractor for all that extra stuff let alone a belt and pulleys. I have no snap fast on mine anymore cause the axle in there I couldn’t figure out how to run most factory attachments anyhow. I think my solution is going to be a front 3 point hitch, I then can run a blade and it’ll make it easier to take off and put on that 3 or 400 pound front weight.
 

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On my tractor I am running two pumps, two valves, two coolers and two tanks. Two separate systems hooked to one lever. You stated you were going to plow snow in your driveway. I would think running a series circuit would be better for that application. Unless a lot of extra tire spinning doesn’t bother you cause with mine which ever end breaks traction first doesn’t care that the other end isn’t moving yet. That might get hairy on a icy hill. In series circuit both ends can only go the same speed. One factory pump would run that just fine, a bigger pump would increase your ground speed in that setup. I used two separate systems on mine to basically double the psi doubling the pulling power.
I do not know much about hydraulics but how is the psi different? I would guess that the restrictions would be the pump then motor.
since driving the tractor is only30% strain on the system adding a second drive function still wouldn’t max out the systems ability.
 

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JRP1 answer, the picture does not show the correct position of the front axle, the jack is holding it level. I did that to get height measurements front to back. When finishes, the axle tubes will be in the same place as the factory axle was. The main use will be to plow snow, I live on the side of a hill, my driveway is 22 Degrees and it is hard to plow uphill.
Gordy answer, the quick hitch is not a problem, the lower mount that hung down, took most of the strain. I have to find a way that the frame is taking the stain and not the quick hitch but the front differential is in the way.
Jancoe answer, there are three Lifan 24 hp for sale one for $901, $939 they have 6 amp charging circuits and one for $957, it has a 24 amp circuit. I'm still working on the front end.
As you see in the pic, I have the frame on a rack. I,m trying to do as much as I can before I mount the front/rear differentials,once mounted I'll have to work on the floor.
I got the TCV controls installed today, it makes it easy when you can turn the frame upside down.
Bill
Awesome. Have you considered useing some type of 3 way valve system so you can free wheel the front tires to make turning easier?
 

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I do not know much about hydraulics but how is the psi different? I would guess that the restrictions would be the pump then motor.
since driving the tractor is only30% strain on the system adding a second drive function still wouldn’t max out the systems ability.
The drive system will be pretty close if not 100% load when you get your pressure up around 2100. A 14hp kohler will be dead in its tracks. I am no engineer either but here is how it works, a X amount of psi gives you a X amount of torque. So let’s say from one pump and one motor at max psi you’d get 100flb torque but you have one up front now your getting 200. In a series system, 1 pump and 2 motors you can make the same amount but now if you stop the first motor the second motor is making zero cause all the pressure is going threw relief valve. Also to note during my research these hydraulic motors were not designed for back pressure, so in a series circuit you should add case drains to them. I haven’t even checked my pressures yet but I am assuming they are set to low and it will kill a 20hp onan no problem. So to me if one pump takes 14hp and you have two hydraulic motors you still only have and need 14hp and with two pumps you need 28hp so that should be twice the hp to the ground. Does it really have twice the pulling power though, I have no idea or test to prove it.
 

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The drive system will be pretty close if not 100% load when you get your pressure up around 2100. A 14hp kohler will be dead in its tracks. I am no engineer either but here is how it works, a X amount of psi gives you a X amount of torque. So let’s say from one pump and one motor at max psi you’d get 100flb torque but you have one up front now your getting 200. In a series system, 1 pump and 2 motors you can make the same amount but now if you stop the first motor the second motor is making zero cause all the pressure is going threw relief valve. Also to note during my research these hydraulic motors were not designed for back pressure, so in a series circuit you should add case drains to them. I haven’t even checked my pressures yet but I am assuming they are set to low and it will kill a 20hp onan no problem. So to me if one pump takes 14hp and you have two hydraulic motors you still only have and need 14hp and with two pumps you need 28hp so that should be twice the hp to the ground. Does it really have twice the pulling power though, I have no idea or test to prove it.
I am by no means an expert but I wanted to clear some things up here. The factory pump is 8gpm on most of these tractors, requiring a little over 10hp to run at 2300psi. The motors on the transaxles are rated for up to 20gpm so they can handle far more than they're given. With hydraulics it's not so simple as more this equals more that. PSI has the most effect on torque and hp comes from a combination of GPM and your operating psi. Here is a website I like to use, shows you the equation and some extra little tidbits that are nice: Horsepower Calculator - Metaris Hydraulics

Opinion bit:
If you were to run the axles with one pump I would recommend a balancer valve setup set to either 50/50 or 60/40 then from the balancer valve setup you'd split out to your motors. The input to the balancer would be from the TCV which in turn would simplify it a little more. IMO if you upgraded to a 14 gpm pump you'd have almost double the effective horsepower but roughly the same amount of torque (assuming pressure stays the same). Again, I'm not an expert, I've just looked at some 4x4 options and kind of kicked these theories around in my head.
 

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I am by no means an expert but I wanted to clear some things up here. The factory pump is 8gpm on most of these tractors, requiring a little over 10hp to run at 2300psi. The motors on the transaxles are rated for up to 20gpm so they can handle far more than they're given. With hydraulics it's not so simple as more this equals more that. PSI has the most effect on torque and hp comes from a combination of GPM and your operating psi. Here is a website I like to use, shows you the equation and some extra little tidbits that are nice: Horsepower Calculator - Metaris Hydraulics

Opinion bit:
If you were to run the axles with one pump I would recommend a balancer valve setup set to either 50/50 or 60/40 then from the balancer valve setup you'd split out to your motors. The input to the balancer would be from the TCV which in turn would simplify it a little more. IMO if you upgraded to a 14 gpm pump you'd have almost double the effective horsepower but roughly the same amount of torque (assuming pressure stays the same). Again, I'm not an expert, I've just looked at some 4x4 options and kind of kicked these theories around in my head.
While most of that is true your assuming a 12hp engine would be plenty of hp when in the real world it may make it to relief pressure but it’ll never maintain that for any period of time not to mention you’ll be working it to death. Running a single pump and divider is the proper way to do it, it’s not going to be a cheap project. Also if you drop a gpm your going to lose ground speed.
 

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I have been working on the tractor, just haven't posted for a while.
Last pic was the frame I'm using, I extended the frame 7 inches because I have long legs and need room for power steering. This tractor will never cut grass again, so turning radius is not important. I cut the back end off the donor tractor and welded them together. I also reinforced the frame on the inside. View attachment 127573 View attachment 127574 View attachment 127575
I bolted the differentials on to check fit and see if front and rear height differ,they did. I had to raise the back
2 1/2 inches. View attachment 127576 View attachment 127577
In this pic you can see the front differential mount, it allows the from to pivot like the axle did. Needs a little reinforcing yet.
The next step was to mount the orbital valve for the power steering. The valve was too wide to keep the controls in their original position, so I had to move them. View attachment 127578 View attachment 127579
Steering valve mount and new battery tray. I'm working on linkage now.
I have not figured how too mount a snow blade yet as the the front drive is in the way,I'll have to wait until the front end is mounted and see what kind of room I have to work with.
Question for Scotticy, how big of a pump did you use to run two hyd motors at a reasonable speed and now that you have done it, would you change anything?
Does anyone have any opinions on LIFAN engines? I can get a 24 hp for $900.
Thanks Bill
I have been working on the tractor, just haven't posted for a while.
Last pic was the frame I'm using, I extended the frame 7 inches because I have long legs and need room for power steering. This tractor will never cut grass again, so turning radius is not important. I cut the back end off the donor tractor and welded them together. I also reinforced the frame on the inside. View attachment 127573 View attachment 127574 View attachment 127575
I bolted the differentials on to check fit and see if front and rear height differ,they did. I had to raise the back
2 1/2 inches. View attachment 127576 View attachment 127577
In this pic you can see the front differential mount, it allows the from to pivot like the axle did. Needs a little reinforcing yet.
The next step was to mount the orbital valve for the power steering. The valve was too wide to keep the controls in their original position, so I had to move them. View attachment 127578 View attachment 127579
Steering valve mount and new battery tray. I'm working on linkage now.
I have not figured how too mount a snow blade yet as the the front drive is in the way,I'll have to wait until the front end is mounted and see what kind of room I have to work with.
Question for Scotticy, how big of a pump did you use to run two hyd motors at a reasonable speed and now that you have done it, would you change anything?
Does anyone have any opinions on LIFAN engines? I can get a 24 hp for $900.
Thanks Bill
I have been working on the tractor, just haven't posted for a while.
Last pic was the frame I'm using, I extended the frame 7 inches because I have long legs and need room for power steering. This tractor will never cut grass again, so turning radius is not important. I cut the back end off the donor tractor and welded them together. I also reinforced the frame on the inside. View attachment 127573 View attachment 127574 View attachment 127575
I bolted the differentials on to check fit and see if front and rear height differ,they did. I had to raise the back
2 1/2 inches. View attachment 127576 View attachment 127577
In this pic you can see the front differential mount, it allows the from to pivot like the axle did. Needs a little reinforcing yet.
The next step was to mount the orbital valve for the power steering. The valve was too wide to keep the controls in their original position, so I had to move them. View attachment 127578 View attachment 127579
Steering valve mount and new battery tray. I'm working on linkage now.
I have not figured how too mount a snow blade yet as the the front drive is in the way,I'll have to wait until the front end is mounted and see what kind of room I have to work with.
Question for Scotticy, how big of a pump did you use to run two hyd motors at a reasonable speed and now that you have done it, would you change anything?
Does anyone have any opinions on LIFAN engines? I can get a 24 hp for $900.
Thanks Bill
What did you source for the orbital valve ?
 

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The best way to approach the horsepower versus PSI versus flow question is just to look at it holistically:
What overall work am I asking the engine to do, and how much horsepower does that take? How heavy will the machine be how steep is the grade and how much power does it take to accomplish that task. From there you get the horsepower you need and from that point you just divide the horsepower out to the components by means of appropriately routing hydraulic flow to the components. My seat of the pants opinion is that this machine's going to be pretty heavy and you're talking about going up a 22° grade so I would think that 20 horsepower would be really struggling. If you could do 24 or even slightly more if it's available, that's what I'd be thinking.

And I agree with dude in AR that the way to accomplish it is to have twin circuits with a proportioning flow divider valve to split the flow between them. These valves are adjustable, you can directly set how much flow goes to which circuit. And it 100% enforces them. So kind of like a locked differential where both wheels are forced to turn so that you always have at least one wheel providing traction, in this scenario both front and rear axles would always have flow pushed through them at all times. So you wouldn't get a situation where one set of wheels gets stuck and then the flow just gets sent to the other side of wheels.

Having said that, in a case TCV, the hydraulic motor flow is in series with the lift circuit. (If you're traveling, the lift circuit (and the power beyond port if one is installed) is fed by the oil flowing back out of the travel motor.) So it is a known quantity from that standpoint that you can run these motors in series with other pressure devices.

But you may be right, there may be something inherent in running from motor to motor that one or both of them requires a case drain. About that I cannot speak with confidence.

Bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
I'm begging for answers here and I am confused. I don't mean to show an attitude but some things don't make sense.
I thank each one one of you for your valued opinions/ideas. I knew nothing about hydraulics until I started playing with these tractors, and now know enough to be dangerous.
There have been many discussions about hydraulics and articulated builds. Many have built them and they appear to be well built by some talented people. Each discussion I recall said to connect the two hydraulic motors in series. The fact that my tractor doesn't bend in the middle should have no effect on which wheel is driving and which wheel is stuck. Are these articulated machines that people built all show and no go?
I am getting close to the point where I'm going to have to make a decision on how to plumb this. So I got to figure this out.
Some answers, I will be using a 24 hp engine driving a 1.32 cu in pump capable of 10 gpm. I also need priority for power steering.
50 cal I got the orbital valve on ebay, it is a Danfoss. I used them twice before and except for being a little big and heavy, they work great.
Thanks Bill
 

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I don't know that I can tell you everything there is to know but let me give you my perspective more clearly: You're going to have a single pump providing output. You're going to use a priority flow divider valve to split out a specified portion of that flow to guarantee that the power steering unit always receives about two and a half GPM. So you now effectively have two circuits. Circuit A from the pump to the steering valve, circuit b from the pump to everything else. I don't see any reason you couldn't choose to run circuit b directly to the TCV and from the TCV to motor one and from motor one to motor two, and from there back into the tank. So all the fluid that passes through motor one has to also pass through motor two. I am unfamiliar with any caveats or difficulties of using that approach. You mentioned you may need case drains, and you could be right.

But the other approach that I know for certain can work, is to install another priority flow divider valve in order to split circuit b in half. So half of circuit b drives a TCV connected to the motor on the front axle, and the other half of circuit b drives a different TCV connected to the motor on the rear axle. One advantage of this approach is that you can adjust the proportion of flow between the two parts of circuit b. So you don't have to choose identical gearing and motor ratios between the front and rear axles. You can simply adjust the flow divider valve to direct how much relative flow to both axles to make them travel the same speed.

I would lean toward that method only because it makes it easier to find axle hardware that can work. And because I don't have any ambiguity about it having idiosyncrasies or caveats.

Bob
 

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I don't know that I can tell you everything there is to know but let me give you my perspective more clearly: You're going to have a single pump providing output. You're going to use a priority flow divider valve to split out a specified portion of that flow to guarantee that the power steering unit always receives about two and a half GPM. So you now effectively have two circuits. Circuit A from the pump to the steering valve, circuit b from the pump to everything else. I don't see any reason you couldn't choose to run circuit b directly to the TCV and from the TCV to motor one and from motor one to motor two, and from there back into the tank. So all the fluid that passes through motor one has to also pass through motor two. I am unfamiliar with any caveats or difficulties of using that approach. You mentioned you may need case drains, and you could be right.

But the other approach that I know for certain can work, is to install another priority flow divider valve in order to split circuit b in half. So half of circuit b drives a TCV connected to the motor on the front axle, and the other half of circuit b drives a different TCV connected to the motor on the rear axle. One advantage of this approach is that you can adjust the proportion of flow between the two parts of circuit b. So you don't have to choose identical gearing and motor ratios between the front and rear axles. You can simply adjust the flow divider valve to direct how much relative flow to both axles to make them travel the same speed.

I would lean toward that method only because it makes it easier to find axle hardware that can work. And because I don't have any ambiguity about it having idiosyncrasies or caveats.

Bob
But one last thing I just realized. A 10 GPM pump is already a little bit light if you're splitting power steering out of it. Not super light just slightly. But if you're locked into a 10 GPM pump then you definitely don't want to split circuit b in half. You would definitely want to run the motors in series because if you split 8 GPM in half, then each of your motors is only going to be getting four GPM. And that's going to be a really slow speed.

Bob
 

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From past builds that I have seen on the net, the biggest downfall to running 2 motors in series is if one wheel looses traction, the whole tractor comes to a stop. The oil flow will run to the axle without traction and you sit and spin. I haven't seen a build with case drains on the drive motors however they were configured by they guy that built the machine. If I were to build something like this I'd run a priority valve with 2 tcv's to each axle.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk
 
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