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I don't know that I can tell you everything there is to know but let me give you my perspective more clearly: You're going to have a single pump providing output. You're going to use a priority flow divider valve to split out a specified portion of that flow to guarantee that the power steering unit always receives about two and a half GPM. So you now effectively have two circuits. Circuit A from the pump to the steering valve, circuit b from the pump to everything else. I don't see any reason you couldn't choose to run circuit b directly to the TCV and from the TCV to motor one and from motor one to motor two, and from there back into the tank. So all the fluid that passes through motor one has to also pass through motor two. I am unfamiliar with any caveats or difficulties of using that approach. You mentioned you may need case drains, and you could be right.

But the other approach that I know for certain can work, is to install another priority flow divider valve in order to split circuit b in half. So half of circuit b drives a TCV connected to the motor on the front axle, and the other half of circuit b drives a different TCV connected to the motor on the rear axle. One advantage of this approach is that you can adjust the proportion of flow between the two parts of circuit b. So you don't have to choose identical gearing and motor ratios between the front and rear axles. You can simply adjust the flow divider valve to direct how much relative flow to both axles to make them travel the same speed.

I would lean toward that method only because it makes it easier to find axle hardware that can work. And because I don't have any ambiguity about it having idiosyncrasies or caveats.

Bob
The drive motor on a case is always last in every circuit case designed for the reason not to add a case drain. I was unable to find any hydraulic motor on the market that would handle that much back pressure.
 

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I'm begging for answers here and I am confused. I don't mean to show an attitude but some things don't make sense.
I thank each one one of you for your valued opinions/ideas. I knew nothing about hydraulics until I started playing with these tractors, and now know enough to be dangerous.
There have been many discussions about hydraulics and articulated builds. Many have built them and they appear to be well built by some talented people. Each discussion I recall said to connect the two hydraulic motors in series. The fact that my tractor doesn't bend in the middle should have no effect on which wheel is driving and which wheel is stuck. Are these articulated machines that people built all show and no go?
I am getting close to the point where I'm going to have to make a decision on how to plumb this. So I got to figure this out.
Some answers, I will be using a 24 hp engine driving a 1.32 cu in pump capable of 10 gpm. I also need priority for power steering.
50 cal I got the orbital valve on ebay, it is a Danfoss. I used them twice before and except for being a little big and heavy, they work great.
Thanks Bill
I run my steering off the lift circuit on one of my tcv, it’s a bit slow so not sure if it’s a John Deere thing or flow but all the jd guys said they were slow from the factory. For that size of pump a 24hp should be fine. I killed my 24hp 3 times today and backed off of it several others to save it. I figure to drive a 16gpm pump would take 32hp. Most these tractors built are for show. I choose to run to separate pumps cause I cut up two tractors anyhow. So it’s all factory parts minus 2 hoses.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Thank You but the way I understand it. A pump puts out flow not pressure and there is little or no pressure until the flow meets a resistance ie. pump or cylinder. If your putting out 10 gpm to motor that has no traction spinning tires that will offer little or no resistance, the pressure will be low. If you were returning the flow to the tvc, the tractor would stop, but we're not returning the flow to the tvc but to another motor which is not spinning and will offer resistance to the same 10 gallon flow building pressure to the second motor. Since it is a closed system the second motor is setting there waiting for an input, it will turn gears/tires. If it won't accept the flow in a closed system than you would be dead heading the pump.
What did I miss here?Bill
 

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Thank You but the way I understand it. A pump puts out flow not pressure and there is little or no pressure until the flow meets a resistance ie. pump or cylinder. If your putting out 10 gpm to motor that has no traction spinning tires that will offer little or no resistance, the pressure will be low. If you were returning the flow to the tvc, the tractor would stop, but we're not returning the flow to the tvc but to another motor which is not spinning and will offer resistance to the same 10 gallon flow building pressure to the second motor. Since it is a closed system the second motor is setting there waiting for an input, it will turn gears/tires. If it won't accept the flow in a closed system than you would be dead heading the pump.
What did I miss here?Bill
If your spinning out yes pressure is low and the oil always returns to the tcv from the motor while it’s turning, then back to the cooler and then into the tank. The problem occurs when the second motor stops turning the first motor has whatever the relief pressure on both sides of it and then the shaft seal is going to say bye bye. But to me if it’s spinning out a lot I have a traction issue to work on. All the valves on a case has a relief and are open circuit, so dead heading a pump on one impossible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Scott, Been thinking about what you said all night. If the the front motor is spinning due to ice or whatever, there will be low pressure on either side of motor one. If the second motor is stuck so bad that it can't turn the wheels,the pressure to motor two will increase to whatever the pumps putting out. Now since the motors are connected together that pressure would be felt at motor one. These motors are designed to except high pressure in either direction, so why would it blow a seal.
I have been running turf tires all these years and I have never seen a situation that the motor could not turn the the tires, if the tractor can't move, the tires will dig a hole in the yard.
This tractor will be on ice,deep snow or loose dirt. I can't imagine any condition that stop a motor from turning.
I have checked into a larger pump, 22gph at 3600 rpm and splitter valves and maybe even running two pumps.
I can't convince myself that it has to be that complicated. But I have been wrong before.
Thanks for you help, Bill
 

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The second motor down the line only gets flow if the first motor is spinning. The TCV has a pressure relief valve that's set somewhere around... 1900? 2100? Somewhere in that range. If the first motor in the line hits enough resistance, that relief valve will open, and neither motor will get any flow.

So, lock your "first" axle, and both axles stop spinning.

This is moderated by two things: a: it's possible to dial up that relief valve pressure and b: as you mentioned, you get quite a bit of torque before the valve trips.

I don't know what the practical limits are on how high of relief pressure it could stand, and I don't know what your real-world experience would be for how often the first axle would ever lock hard enough to trip relief.

On a different note:. Upon reflection, I'll bet that the motor's shaft seal area drains its case to whichever port is low pressure. So that the motor can have either of its ports at high pressure, but not both at the same time. But others would have to confirm if I'm right about that. But if I am right, then that's why the first motor in line would have to have a separate case drain, in case the second axle locked hard and pushed the full ~2000 psi backpressure to the first motor.

And since, forward or reverse, either motor can become the first motor in line, then both your motors would need a case drain.

Bob
 

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Scott, Been thinking about what you said all night. If the the front motor is spinning due to ice or whatever, there will be low pressure on either side of motor one. If the second motor is stuck so bad that it can't turn the wheels,the pressure to motor two will increase to whatever the pumps putting out. Now since the motors are connected together that pressure would be felt at motor one. These motors are designed to except high pressure in either direction, so why would it blow a seal.
I have been running turf tires all these years and I have never seen a situation that the motor could not turn the the tires, if the tractor can't move, the tires will dig a hole in the yard.
This tractor will be on ice,deep snow or loose dirt. I can't imagine any condition that stop a motor from turning.
I have checked into a larger pump, 22gph at 3600 rpm and splitter valves and maybe even running two pumps.
I can't convince myself that it has to be that complicated. But I have been wrong before.
Thanks for you help, Bill
If you do choose the splitter valve solution, a 22 GPM pump would be plenty. 20 would be fine too. 2 for power steering, 9 each for each travel/axle circuit.

And you can see a full description of the ps splitter in the 4020ps hydraulic manual.

Bob
 

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Scott, Been thinking about what you said all night. If the the front motor is spinning due to ice or whatever, there will be low pressure on either side of motor one. If the second motor is stuck so bad that it can't turn the wheels,the pressure to motor two will increase to whatever the pumps putting out. Now since the motors are connected together that pressure would be felt at motor one. These motors are designed to except high pressure in either direction, so why would it blow a seal.
I have been running turf tires all these years and I have never seen a situation that the motor could not turn the the tires, if the tractor can't move, the tires will dig a hole in the yard.
This tractor will be on ice,deep snow or loose dirt. I can't imagine any condition that stop a motor from turning.
I have checked into a larger pump, 22gph at 3600 rpm and splitter valves and maybe even running two pumps.
I can't convince myself that it has to be that complicated. But I have been wrong before.
Thanks for you help, Bill
It’s made to have pressure on either port of the motor to change direction but it’s not meant to have equal pressure on both sides at the same time. Return pressure is only the resistance caused by atmosphere. Does that make sense? You have a few choices on how to do it properly. First, run one pump through a divider to each motor. Second, run one pump in series to both motors and add case drains to them. Only you know your skill set and budget. For me it’d be hard to custom build a tractor that can only do one task. I’d lose the old school turfs for some softer snow type tire maybe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Yesterday I went to two local Hydraulics and tractor repair shops and spoke to some techs, they were intrigued with my project and were very helpful. Two shops and two different opinions that basically agreed with everything that has been said here.
I also did a search on articulated and case drains. From what I found most of the articulated went with series motors .
The search also said case did not intend for drive motors to need drains as Bob said(low pressure side). On a drain one end goes to the return, where would you connect it to the motor? You couldn't connect to each motor port or depending on direction, the flow would go to return and motor wouldn't turn.
I think every scenario presented is valid under the right circumstances.
This tractor is going to spend it's life on ice and snow, I can't thing of a situation where wheels won't be spinning.
Scott, if this thing works I'll invest in new tires.
The shop guy advised me to go with series and if it does not work then go with split or double pumps.
That's easy for them to say, they sell hoses.
Bill
 

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Yesterday I went to two local Hydraulics and tractor repair shops and spoke to some techs, they were intrigued with my project and were very helpful. Two shops and two different opinions that basically agreed with everything that has been said here.
I also did a search on articulated and case drains. From what I found most of the articulated went with series motors .
The search also said case did not intend for drive motors to need drains as Bob said(low pressure side). On a drain one end goes to the return, where would you connect it to the motor? You couldn't connect to each motor port or depending on direction, the flow would go to return and motor wouldn't turn.
I think every scenario presented is valid under the right circumstances.
This tractor is going to spend it's life on ice and snow, I can't thing of a situation where wheels won't be spinning.
Scott, if this thing works I'll invest in new tires.
The shop guy advised me to go with series and if it does not work then go with split or double pumps.
That's easy for them to say, they sell hoses.
Bill
I was imprecise in how I spoke. If you put them in series, the full path is like this:

pump--->TCV pressure port.
Spool pulled "out": TCV motor (work) port 1-----> motora a ----->motor b ----->TCV motor (work) port 2 ----->TCV return port ---> tank
Spool pushed "in": TCV motor (work) port 2-----> motora b ----->motor a ----->TCV motor (work) port 1 ----->TCV return port ---> tank

The motors always return the oil back to the TCV's "other" port before the oil makes its way to the tank.

Bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
This whole project is going to be a gamble. I ordered my engine today, Lifan 24 hp, suppose to be here Fri.
Here are a few more progress shots
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Bumper Automotive exterior Gas

Orbital Valve.
Motor vehicle Bumper Automotive design Automotive exterior Automotive lighting

Orbital valve and new battery tray
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Asphalt Road surface Wood

Rear spacer so back is the same height as the front.

Wood Road surface Asphalt Motor vehicle Red

TVC linkage
Motor vehicle Automotive tire Gas Wood Automotive exterior

Front differential mount. It will pivot like the old axle did I've had it bolted up and it fits, just don't know if it will bend under stress.
Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I've been working on it. got side tracked, the 4020 decided it didn't want to vacuum leaves.Had to fix it.I thought the front differential was going to be the hard part of this project but a bunch of other things have come to light.
I bought a 24hp Lifan engine.
Hood Motor vehicle Grille Automotive lighting Automotive tire

I should have known that 24hp was going to be bigger. It is 4" longer and the pump I bought is 2" longer and the engine has a 3" shaft. The front of the engine will be forward to where the cooler was.I can't go back because of the power steering.
I;m thinking about cutting 1 1/4 inch off the shaft and since none of the bolt holes lined up, I had to make a pump mount.
Tire Automotive tire Wheel Motor vehicle Tread

If yo notice, the control rods go up at an angle, had to widen them because of the orbital valve
Here is a test fit of the rear end. and installed disc brakes.
Looks like I'm going to have lengthen the front frame and figure a way to mount a snow blade.
More later Bill
 

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First off, these motors don't have case drains. There is no provision to install one. When Ross designed these motors, one port went directly to the front section, the whole motor body is under pressure, so they had to install a high pressure shaft seal by default. This feature is good for running two motors in series as what goes in comes out.
Articulating tractors have the benefit of both motors going the same speed (if pivot is in middle), even when cornering. Like all 4x4's, cornering will be your challenge. When you turn tightly with a 4x4 truck, at least one wheel spins, even on asphalt, which puts a huge stress on drive train, and sometimes lighten your pocket. Since spinning is your problem, I would suggest series circuit and let slippage control torque. Less turning radius, means less stress.
 

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A parallel circuit with a an adjustable flow divider would better serve no? Adjust it to allow the front axle to pull the rear slightly in a straight line [as most regular tractors with mechanical FWD do] while permitting the front to spin faster when accomplishing a turn reducing understeer/plowing especially on slippery surfaces.
 

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First off, these motors don't have case drains. There is no provision to install one. When Ross designed these motors, one port went directly to the front section, the whole motor body is under pressure, so they had to install a high pressure shaft seal by default. This feature is good for running two motors in series as what goes in comes out.
Articulating tractors have the benefit of both motors going the same speed (if pivot is in middle), even when cornering. Like all 4x4's, cornering will be your challenge. When you turn tightly with a 4x4 truck, at least one wheel spins, even on asphalt, which puts a huge stress on drive train, and sometimes lighten your pocket. Since spinning is your problem, I would suggest series circuit and let slippage control torque. Less turning radius, means less stress.
These motors are never under full pressure, return pressure is always free flowing. My 4x4 never has never had to skip a tire to turn a corner. If I am putting a lot of power to it then it’ll turn posi but even with all the weight I have it won’t bind up, it just spins out the inside tire.
 

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These motors are never under full pressure, return pressure is always free flowing.
Yes the side going to tank is at low pressure until you go in reverse, then it gets pressurized and the other side is going to tank. In one direction the shaft seal sees the inlet pressure.There is no low pressure zone. If connected in series, the first motor will have pressure at both ports. These motors are great for that.
My 4x4 never has never had to skip a tire to turn a corner. If I am putting a lot of power to it then it’ll turn posi but even with all the weight I have it won’t bind up, it just spins out the inside tire.
Yes, one wheel spins, that's my point.
True. I forgot that the wheels are somewhat allowed to freewheel ahead as would happen in a turn. But with the axle motors in series, would this also happen enough to prevent scrubbing?
Are you talking about automatic locking hubs? In this set up it would scrub if you turn tight enough. There will be a little compliance between the motors that will allow a slight turn.
 

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Yes the side going to tank is at low pressure until you go in reverse, then it gets pressurized and the other side is going to tank. In one direction the shaft seal sees the inlet pressure.There is no low pressure zone. If connected in series, the first motor will have pressure at both ports. These motors are great for that.
Yes, one wheel spins, that's my point.
Are you talking about automatic locking hubs? In this set up it would scrub if you turn tight enough. There will be a little compliance between the motors that will allow a slight turn.
Never heard if a on way hydraulic motor. From my research they said for longevity of the system it’s a good idea to add case drains to these motors ran in series. Case didn’t put the motor last in every system they designed for no reason and ingersoll didn’t add case drains cause they were bored. The rear end on a tractor doesn’t bind when you turn and it still doesn’t when have 2 of them, and I dont feel I should have to explain how a diff works to you. Doing what you can get by with and doing it properly isn’t always the same thing. The 4 wheel drive part wouldn’t even hurt a soft lawn but the 1 ton and dual wheels part is not going to do well on it.
 

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Most motors are better with case drains, eg. hydrovac. The Ross drive motor used in 200, 400 and 600 series is different. It is a 2-zone motor, there is no way to install case drain. Char-Lynn is a 3-zone motor. Ross was bought by Parker. Here is some Parker info:
Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Diagram


The 2-zone motor has to have a high-pressure shaft seal. The 3-zone motor has to have check valves to vent shaft seal to the low-pressure side. On the 3-zone, if there is too much back pressure or when connected in series, the "case" drain (circle at bottom, unfortunately not labeled) must be connected to tank. Some newer and off-shore 3-zone motors also have high-pressure shaft seals as standard, so case drains are not needed.

The drive isn't last in hydraulic circuit. The auxiliary valve is downstream of motor. On most 600 series, the whole loader (and backhoe) function is downstream.
 
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