Case Colt Ingersoll Tractors banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With the help from this group I recently purchased a well-used and abused 1981 Case 648. I would have preferred something in better shape, but I know how hard it is to find one and I think I paid a fair price considering the condition.

The good -
Runs and operates well other than needing banana plate repairs/tightening

The bad -
Everything else (just kidding-most everything else)
rotten muffler
weak drive
missing fenders/dash panel/seat support/headlights/drawbar/etc
some hydraulic leaks
needs bucket wear strip

Basis the features of this machine I suspected it was a 648 backhoe model, and someone had taken off the backhoe, fenders, etc. But after more closely looking I am now thinking this was a donor machine for someone to create a backhoe machine out of another Case loader.

I could sure use some help from the group in understanding what I bought and deciding how much $ into getting it back as close to original as possible. I have at least an understanding of what I bought.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... hotostream

It has the flotation tires and what I thought was the backhoe subframe, but it is actually a hand-made subframe for the weight box to be chained to. The fenders, seat support and drawbar are missing, and the heavy duty rear housing is missing. Looking at the rear housing from underneath I see it it orange/red color and not yellow, indicating it came from another machine.

Questions:
Is there any way to identify the rear to see if it is correct for this machine? I am worried this came from the wrong machine.
I have 3 hard hydraulic lines on the right side, two are hosed together and the other left open with check valve dripping. Can this line be capped?
I think I can find a rear seat support, fenders and drawbar for a guy on ebay for a 646, which should fit. Do I need anythign else to properly mount the weight box after removing the homemade subframe?
Any other noticeable parts I am missing?
Is there a generic gas cap available that fits these - the plastic gas cap is leaking


http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... otostream/

Also, I am getting a hydraulic leak where the line goes into the oil filter. It does not have any teflon tape on the threads, but they are tight. About 1 drop/10 seconds so I thought I could just loosen and add teflon tape- is this OK?

Thanks in advance. I have been working with Brian to order the Ingersoll parts like the muffler, but before I do I just want to make sure I have my full shopping list and that the rear is OK.

Thanks
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes - it came from the hudson valley NY, posted mid summer but did not buy it until last week

Owner died and his grandson was selling for him. The family was very honest, and knowledgable about the tractor.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,618 Posts
vfrman91 said:
With the help from this group I recently purchased a well-used and abused 1981 Case 648. I would have preferred something in better shape, but I know how hard it is to find one and I think I paid a fair price considering the condition.

The good -
Runs and operates well other than needing banana plate repairs/tightening

The bad -
Everything else (just kidding-most everything else)
rotten muffler The OEM mufflers are considered by most people to be quite expensive. Several owners have chosen to fabricate their own exhaust systems from stainless steel so that they end up with a lifetime muffler and pipes. Something for you to think about.

weak drive The "weak drive" issue is common but it is also solvable. The process begins with you reading the FAQ that explains how to change out ALL the oil that is currently in the tractor and installing 20W50 motor oil. Once you have done that, then the 2nd issue has to do with the infamous banana plate. In order for you to have full power, the linkage must push and pull the spool in the travel valve ALL the way in and out. When that problem is resolved, then you will need a pressure gauge to see how much pressure the existing pump is capable of delivering. Perhaps your pump is badly worn, perhaps not. The pressure test will likely reveal that. We are more than happy to work with you step by step to get the hydraulic system back to the way it should be.

missing fenders/dash panel/seat support/headlights/drawbar/etc Joe's Outdoor Power in Michigan is likely your best source for the used parts you need. Give them a call and speak to JOE directly. Make sure you have your serial number handy.

some hydraulic leaks Hydraulic leaks are a minor issue. Loose fittings, broken O-rings, bad hoses, worn seals and damaged cylinder rods can all be corrected.

needs bucket wear strip If you have an arc welder and cutting torches, this is not a difficult task. Most likely, someone in your area sells cutting edges. You just have to find them.

Basis the features of this machine I suspected it was a 648 backhoe model, and someone had taken off the backhoe, fenders, etc. But after more closely looking I am now thinking this was a donor machine for someone to create a backhoe machine out of another Case loader.

There was no need to remove the fenders. I can see someone removing the hoe for use on another machine but that's the ONLY item that should have been taken off. Your tractor has the flotation tires on it so it should also have the extended axles. The two hoses at the rear certainly indicate that a hoe was mounted on this tractor originally.

I could sure use some help from the group in understanding what I bought and deciding how much $ into getting it back as close to original as possible. I have at least an understanding of what I bought. Right now, your best friend will be found in the Technical Library in the Parts Manual section for 600 Series tractors. With the correct manual in one hand, you will have to examine your tractor piece by piece to determine what is correct or incorrect and what is there or missing. Make a list showing the description of the item, the page number of the manual and the part numbers.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... hotostream

It has the flotation tires and what I thought was the backhoe subframe, but it is actually a hand-made subframe for the weight box to be chained to. The fenders, seat support and drawbar are missing, and the heavy duty rear housing is missing. Looking at the rear housing from underneath I see it it orange/red color and not yellow, indicating it came from another machine. If the trans-axle housing is orange/red, then it came from a garden tractor. That is not a problem since you no longer have a backhoe for this tractor. You don't really need the gusseted housing found on the B-models.

Questions:
Is there any way to identify the rear to see if it is correct for this machine? I am worried this came from the wrong machine. Don't worry about it. The trans-axles are essentially the same between most of the 200, 400 and 600 Series tractors.

I have 3 hard hydraulic lines on the right side, two are hosed together and the other left open with check valve dripping. Can this line be capped? These lines went to the backhoe. I'll take a look at the manuals to see what's up with that third line and then report back to you later.

I think I can find a rear seat support, fenders and drawbar for a guy on ebay for a 646, which should fit. Do I need anythign else to properly mount the weight box after removing the homemade subframe? It looks as though the weight box was filled with concrete. The Parts Manual shows the OEM weight box and how it mounts to the tractor normally. You might not be able to mount your box that way due to the concrete preventing access to the bolt holes.

Any other noticeable parts I am missing?

Is there a generic gas cap available that fits these - the plastic gas cap is leaking Just order a cap from Brian.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ... otostream/

Also, I am getting a hydraulic leak where the line goes into the oil filter. It does not have any teflon tape on the threads, but they are tight. About 1 drop/10 seconds so I thought I could just loosen and add teflon tape- is this OK? I don't use Teflon tape on hydraulic systems. Instead, I use pipe thread sealant that is in a paste format.

Thanks in advance. I have been working with Brian to order the Ingersoll parts like the muffler, but before I do I just want to make sure I have my full shopping list and that the rear is OK.

Thanks
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hydriv,

Thank you for the detailed response - I was hoping you would chime in.

I am relieved that the rear-end is OK being from a Garden tractor- I was worried it would be lighter duty than that from a 600 series. I dont need the reinforced axles, but I dont want a substandard rear going south on me when I start working it. I suspect the original axles were used in the transaxle, instead of extended - possibly that is the reason for the fenders being gone? I guess I wont know for sure until I locate some used fenders and rear seat support. If they fit and clear the tires then I will be happy. I will contact Joe Hemmi as well as Ebay seller Neewallah, who was suggested by another member.

If this transaxle came from a 200/400 tractor will the hydraulic motor be the same or is there a possible problem there?

You mention 20w-50 in the hydraulic system while I have read 15w-40 elsewher on the site? Does it matter? Forgot to mention the prior owner was nice enough to put a small amount of brake fluid in the hydraulic fluid to help the seals swell up....so a change is a necessity.

Regarding the rear weight box mounting, the parts manual shows the flange mounting to the top/back of the tractor frame with bolts, and the bottom of the box has a pin going through the drawbar. I dont see any details regarding where the drawbar mounts in the parts manual but I can guess it will bolt to the back of the frame if there are any bolt holes. If anyone has a picture of one mounted that would really help visualize.

This site is a great resource for a new owner and the search function has already brought me some comfort on many of the issues.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,618 Posts
vfrman91 said:
Hydriv,

Thank you for the detailed response - I was hoping you would chime in. If I don't post a certain number of times each day, I get hate-mail. :sidelaugh:

I am relieved that the rear-end is OK being from a Garden tractor- I was worried it would be lighter duty than that from a 600 series. If you compare the trans-axle from a 400 Series Case to that of a 600 Series, you will discover that all of the gears are the same and so are the axles. The axles used on the backhoe model are different because they are extended to allow the use of the wide 12 inch rims needed for the flotation tires. I don't think that it is possible to mount the flotation tire/rim combo onto the standard axles because the tires would hit the drive motor. I dont need the reinforced axles, but I dont want a substandard rear going south on me when I start working it. I suspect the original axles were used in the transaxle, instead of extended - possibly that is the reason for the fenders being gone? I guess I wont know for sure until I locate some used fenders and rear seat support. If they fit and clear the tires then I will be happy. I will contact Joe Hemmi as well as Ebay seller Neewallah, who was suggested by another member.

If this transaxle came from a 200/400 tractor will the hydraulic motor be the same or is there a possible problem there? The 600's use the exact same drive motor as the 400's use.

You mention 20w-50 in the hydraulic system while I have read 15w-40 elsewher on the site? Does it matter? Forgot to mention the prior owner was nice enough to put a small amount of brake fluid in the hydraulic fluid to help the seals swell up....so a change is a necessity. The use of brake fluid is a Mickey Mouse fix that does not solve the real problem. While you are in the FAQ's section, read the document about "What oil should I use."

Regarding the rear weight box mounting, the parts manual shows the flange mounting to the top/back of the tractor frame with bolts, and the bottom of the box has a pin going through the drawbar. I dont see any details regarding where the drawbar mounts in the parts manual but I can guess it will bolt to the back of the frame if there are any bolt holes. If anyone has a picture of one mounted that would really help visualize.

The little triangle draw plate bolts directly into the trans-axle housing.

This site is a great resource for a new owner and the search function has already brought me some comfort on many of the issues.
That's good to hear. I guess that we are doing our job then. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 

·
Tractor Whisper
Joined
·
3,703 Posts
Your tractor had Trencher mounted on back the third line leakoff line for hydraulic motor that turn chain.
Weights under front been removed that counter balance Trencher.

Fender was remove because 400 shorter axles if was 646 or 644 fender fit 648 has flotation axle housing and longer axle.

Tires rims off 644 or 646 will fix up so fender fit back on.

To use your tires rims you need flotation rear off 648 BH s/n above 14014289.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,618 Posts
gator_rider2 said:
Your tractor had Trencher mounted on back the third line leakoff line for hydraulic motor that turn chain. gator, Please show me one single piece of Case literature that speaks about a chain trencher being mounted on a 600 Series tractor.
Weights under front been removed that counter balance Trencher.

Fender was remove because 400 shorter axles if was 646 or 644 fender fit 648 has flotation axle housing and longer axle.

Tires rims off 644 or 646 will fix up so fender fit back on.

To use your tires rims you need flotation rear off 648 BH s/n above 14014289.
Sorry to disagree gator but the width of the trans-axle from a 200, 400 and 600 are the same. The backhoe housing has extra gusseting cast into it so that it can carry the weight of the backhoe, subframe and counter balance plates. The backhoe housing uses axles with extensions on them so that the flotation rim/tire combo do not interfere with the drive motor. While I have never tried it, I don't believe that you can mount those flotation rims onto a 400 Series tractor or a 600 Series unless you have the extended axles.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,618 Posts
gator_rider2 said:
http://eastmanind.com.mytempweb.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=xQpRTQRkt0k%3d&tabid=196

This where I got my info on axles and hosing seal and bushing different.

You are correct that Ingersoll did make a change-up to a slightly larger OD axle that necessitated the use of a different seal and bushings. However, it is my understanding that the overall width of the trans-axle housing remained the same and that the tread dimension of the tractor also remained the same. Since we don't have a serial number for the OP's tractor, we don't know which housing and axles were installed in his tractor originally. It might be an early 648 or a late one. As I see it, the real issue here is whether the OP has the standard axle shafts or the extended axle shafts. I await hearing from him on that issue. If he looks at page 56 of this manual, the difference between the two axles is readily apparent.

http://www.manuals.casecoltingersoll.co ... marked.pdf

Phone company in US use a lot Trenchers on 648 this where I got spark for these tractors.
If you have seen such a conversion gator, then I don't doubt your word. However, this would be something that was done by an aftermarket company and not something that left the Winneconne facility as a trencher/loader. I also have a hard time believing that the OEM engine and hydraulic system of a 648 could power a chain trencher because it is not capable of delivering much over 12 to 14 HP to the chain. In 1966, there was an aftermarket company that did convert the 190 Case tractors for trenching but the trencher unit was powered by its own massive gas engine. Photos of one of the few surviving examples can be found in this thread. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3074 See the third photo down on page 2. But I'd love to see any photos or other materials you might be able to source about this conversion because it's all news to me and I would certainly like to learn about it. :thumbsup: So, please see what you can dig up (pun intended) and send me a PM if you have any success in that area. As always, thanks for your input on these issues.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,618 Posts
mikebramel said:
I dont think its out of the question. I have a Davis trencher that is 4wd and powered by just a Kohler 16. That Wisconsin inline twin are rated for 18.6HP for the most powerful model
Is the trenching chain mechanically powered or hydraulically powered? I suspect that Case chose to go with mechanical drive on your model. The other unknowns here are the width of the cutters and the depth of cut. If the units that gator is referring to open a 2" wide cut that is 18 to 24 inches deep, then perhaps it's possible. If you have spent some time using your Davis, then you have personal knowledge just how tough it is for a machine to cut trenches. Sooner or later you will run into big roots, rocks and buried trash that will either stop or destroy your equipment. Many rental companies have given up on chain trenchers for this very reason. They are a high-maintenance item with poor resale value.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thank you to all for the discussion - sounds like this machine might have had a trencher at some point based on the third hydraulic line.

The extra hydraulic line seems to be connected to the dash lever for attachment lift. I am not sure if this was on all 648 models, but when I press the lever briefly the relief valve squeals and you can see the exposed check valve pushed out. At some point it would be nice to connect this to a three point hitch and configure a PTO....once I understand what I have to start with.

I would like to keep the flotation tires if possible and just purchase some used fenders. There is 3-4" clearance between the seat support and inside of tires, so the fenders appear to have enough room to mount. But I wont know for sure until I can locate some and try installing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,462 Posts
I posted (or thought I did anyway) a long response to this yesterday but it either never got posted or disappeared.

Anyway, short story version: I am converting a standard 644 the high flotation version. The real reason is to take advantage of some very high traction 27x12-12 ATV tires that I had on my JD 455 w/loader. They really work well. So I found a set of 12" wheels with the right 6on6 bolt pattern from a Sears tractor. Then found a pair of BH axles from a 648. I bought a set of bushings from Brian to replace the smaller ones in a spare housing I had on hand.

The bushing OD for the short and extended axles is the same. The short ones use a very thick walled bushing and the longer ones use a much thinner version. That and the seals are all the changes needed to put the longer axles in most any 200/400/600 housing.

The extension is primarily needed to get the LH tire away from the drive motor without some crazy amount of wheel offset.

I'm not done, as my 644 needs a lot of other work but the transaxle changes look like they will work ok. Now just need to find time to get it under the tractor, rebush the front axle king pins and bolt an engine in it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,462 Posts
I forgot to mention my guess on your third line. Since it seems to be teed into the belly lift, my guess is the two large lines ran the trencher chain motor and the third was a chain arm lift cylinder.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,618 Posts
Based upon what you are reporting, it is possible that someone may have adapted a chain trencher to this tractor and then it got removed at some point. If it had left the factory as a backhoe model, then the ID plate should be stamped "648 B". Please check your ID plate for the model and serial number so that you can post them here in this thread. If it was a backhoe model, then it would have had three hoses going to it. One hose would be coming directly from the pump OUT port. A second hose would lead back to the IN port on the Travel/Lift valve. The third hose would get Tee'd into the line leading into the filter housing.

What is really annoying is that Case FAILED to show all the lines used in the backhoe models when they made up the Parts Manual. It appears as though all the models got the Tee fitting that screws into the oil filter and they just capped it off on the loader tractors. There is another Tee fitting just before that Tee fitting but they don't show where one of the T connections goes to. We are left to speculate whether that is where the third line from the backhoe valve is connected.

Ken's suggestion that the third line on your tractor was used to power a cylinder on the trencher bar does not seem correct to me. Here's why. If a trencher was installed on this tractor, then there is no question that the Operator would need to raise and lower the chain bar. But they would have used a double-acting cylinder to do this and that would have required two hoses, not one. In order to properly control the chain bar, you would want to be able to apply down pressure to it so that you could have accurate control over the depth of the cut.

gator's theory that the third line was a case drain for the trencher motor also fails on the basis that you traced that line back to the Lift spool on the Travel/Lift valve. Since this third line serves no real purpose at this point, you could disconnect it from the fitting on the Lift Valve port and install a proper CAP fitting......available from any decent hydraulic house.


You could remove the weight box and the support frame from the tractor to allow a three point hitch to be added. The weight box could be altered to allow it to be picked up by the three point hitch whenever it was needed for heavy-duty loader work. That is a compromise situation and it requires the use of "stay chains" to keep the weight box from swinging side to side.

Your fender issue could be resolved just by YOU looking under your tractor and determining once and for all if you have the extended axles. The standard axles have the flange plate that the rim bolts to, just outside of the ends of the housing. If YOUR axle flange plates are not less than one inch away from the ends of the trans-axle housing, then you have the flotation kit axles and you should have no problems installing the fenders and seat pedestal parts that are missing off your tractor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Hydriv,

Thank you for the detailed clarifications. I was able to take a look at the nameplate and axles last night. This is just a plain 648 with no "B" designation. The axles extend about 3" from the rear axle housing, and are quite a bit thicker than where they enter the housing - so the machine does have the proper axles for the flotation tires, which means I can just buy any 646/648 fenders. I did not get a chance to look at the hydraulic hard lines because it was raining and I was in a hurry, but I plan to check those when the weather improves and track them to where they are connected in the system. I did not see a mid-mount lift cylinder, so it is possible the one line is directly connect to the lift valve, which means I should be able to use this to power a 3 point hitch in the future. The other two lines I will eventually try to connect to a PTO valve.

The non-factory subframe on the tractor now appears to have three mount points in the back, so it is likely this machine had a trencher or other powered device attached at some point, which might explain the missing fenders.

It really feels good to have some confidence in how this thing is configured. At first I was really worried it would be impossible to bring it back to a stock state, but now I am confident based on the information the group has provided that what is needed is minor.

Now I can start working on the needs list - fluid, muffler, drive, etc at some point soon.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
12,618 Posts
If you intend to put a 3 pt hitch on the tractor, then you will need TWO hoses going to it because the cylinder is double-acting. If the mid-mount lift cylinder has been removed from your tractor, then one of the work ports on the LIFT VALVE must be capped off if the mystery line going to the rear is attached to the other work port. Finding the correct LT-26 3 pt hitch will not be an easy task as they rarely come up for sale. You could modify an H or J-26 hitch from a 400 Series to work OR...... you could keep an eye open on e-Bay for the newer HH-34 hitch that is currently in use on the Ingersoll models. You can expect to pay anywhere from $400.00 to $600.00 for a hitch depending upon model and condition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hydriv,

I had some decent weather this weekend and the wife took the kids out for an hour, so I was able to trace the auxilliary hydraulic lines. One line is directly connected to the pump discharge, and is currently connected by hose to the other line running back to what I assume is the supply side of the travel/lift valve. The other hard line with ball check is connected to the pump supply line after the filter T connection. I was mistaken when I assumed the one line was connected to the lift port, as both lift ports are plugged due to the missing mid lift cylinder.

This appears to be the standard PTO valve plumbing, with an extra return line. The parts manual does not show a return line on the PTO, but thought I would ask to be sure.

So in my grand plans to eventually obtain a 3 point hitch, can I use the mid lift valve port for raising/float/float down and a separate hand valve for down pressure? I guess my real question on the 3 point cylinder is how it is controlled in the factory configuration? What valve raises and lowers a factory 648 3 point? Is there any way to adapt my unused lift valve for some 3 point control?

Once again - thank you for all of the help. I have printed all the manuals (except the operations manual which is not available online for a 648) and they are tremendously helpful, along with the input from this forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,462 Posts
The mid lift valve is used to operate the mid lift AND the 3 pt in the normal Case configuration. Lots of folks add a valve to allow operating them separately. But if you don't plan to install a mid lift it will work for the 3pt with just a couple of lines. That's what I plan on my 644.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top