[arcaseing]

Following on some of the discussion about repowers; I have a couple of questions that are about upgrading the Hydraulic system for more power.

First, how much engine power do you guys (that are the experts or the ones that have a vast understanding of the Case/Ingersoll Hydraulic system) think that the hyd components (if in like new condition)...lines, hoses, relief valves etc can safely handle if a larger Hyd pump is installed and the relief valve setting is raised as much as much as would be determined to be safe.

Second, if the above scenario was able to be accomplished...and say.. your Hyd system could now transfer up to 25 HP/equivalent Torque to the Hyd. driven attachments, would the Hyd motors of the Case/Ingersoll attachments now be the wrong size to work at the 3600 rpm of the engine.

Third, can you accomplish any of the above if you go to 2 hyd pumps, maybe run in series?

Sorry if these seem like silly or dumb questions but...you never know---if I hppen to find a Case or Ingersoll cheap that has no engine or hydraulic pump, I might be very inclined to make a project out of it and try to increase the Hyd output if at all feasable, especially if it happened to turn into an articulated 4 wd tractor type project.

 

[grummy]

What do you mean by "more power"? A 4" hydraulic ram connected to the rear pto of any Case GT will push in excess of 31,000 lbs based on 2500psi. The current engine/pump configurations with properly configured relief valves have not had any problem spinning the wheels in low range even when heavily loaded with ballast.

That said, you can find a few discussions if you look hard enough where owners have cranked up their pressures for GT pulling and have not complained about blowing up drive motors, but the existing pumps certainly would be subject to detonation.

If you base enhancements on pure gallons per minute of flow, all of the factory 1/2" lines will pretty much be challenged once you approach 15gpm. I personally have a tractor with a 13.7 gpm pump and I wouldnt bother going over that. I run a 20 hp kohler and if I pumped even a smidget more, I would start to really suffer from not having enough horsepower. There are many, many things to be aware of when you up the gpm to that level. While you suddenly find that you like the new low range travel speeds, you end up with high range speeds that are less usable for real work. I came to the conclusion that I would rather opt for a much slower low range and an adequate high range. But, if you were to lower gpm, you lose rpm on hydraulically driven attachments. I will admit one advantage I found with 13.7 gpm is that the tiller runs at an rpm I like better.

If one wants to increase pressures for any other reason than pulling, I would like to understand what those reasons are. As a GT, I dont think there is anything to gain.

Frankly, the stock arrangement is very desirable unless there are some really good, and really specific reasons. I didn't want to believe that when people told me either, at least not until I spent some time behind an 18hp 400 series for a year. Enough power to do 90% of my work in high range and easier cold weather warm ups with less fluid trying to punch thru 1/2" lines. Now I am running a 20hp Onan on a stock pumped 448. I love the control, speed and operation, but I am sure that as great and mighty of an engine the 14HP kohler is, I could see where I would be left wanting if that's what I was stuck with for snow removal and a 48" caster.

In the end, we can look at the loader tractors hydraulic configurations and conclude that when using true power beyond ports as they do for the auxiliary hydraulic circuits, you might not ever really "improve" the overall performance of a stock 18 hp tractor, GT or loader model, except perhaps thru the use of a B48G motor where you gain almost 2 more hp in the same exact footprint.

If there is any improvement to be made for "more power" on these tractors, its simply in a larger engine to provide more belt horsepower for the 60" deck and 48" snow blower. I could use more belt horsepower than the current 20hp I have on my largest two machines.

 

[arcaseing]

to be more specific about the "more power" question, I was thinking about getting more of My 402 PS tractor's 24 Hp (Onan) to the 41" tiller attachment. Maybe even more of the 18 Hp of my 4118 to the Hyd driven mower deck. If the Hyd pumps on either of my Ingersolls ever went out and I was going to have to buy a new one anyway, I would like to know if I had any option to upgrade my available Hyd power (for lack of a better term) to the attachments that I mentioned. Since I have quite abit more HP/Torque available from the Engine of the 4020 than could be utilized by the stock Hyd system, I would like to be able to use more of it, if possible, when needed.

I don't need more pulling power and the 3 Pt hitch on both tractors seems to have good lift and down pressure abilities. But you never know, someone might want to take a 48" snowcaster and make it Hyd driven instead of belt driven, not saying that it's practical or more efficient just that someone might want to do something like that.

The 24 HP on my 4020PS is noticable when using the 60" deck in thick grass and mowing in high range, not top speed but probably 2/3 of top speed at times when conditions are right.

Did you crank up your relief valve setting on your tractor when you put the larger pump on it?

 

[grummy]

Ok, well, now things are just a little clearer. You want a little more power delivered to the hydraulic attachments. I have never had the opportunity to operate an all hydraulic unit, but, I have always had some lingering questions, the largest I guess, would be why it was not a continued offering. With having a 20hp engine pushing a 13.7 gpm pump, and getting a seat of the pants feel for it, I often suspected that they simply did not perform as well as they hoped. I'm not saying they dont perform per say, just that perhaps 20hp was a little on the short side.

So, we find you here now wishing to get even more from your 24hp machine with a stock pump setup. Frankly, if it really is power you feel you are running out of with this larger 24hp engine on a stock pump when it comes to the tiller, your not going to have more power by moving to more gpm. You'll have more rpm on the tiller, but no more power.

My 20hp/13.7 machine is my prime tiller tractor. I can tell you that I can handle the tiller very well. The connection between engine and tiller reacts tightly, meaning that compared to earlier belt driven tillers behind other brands I've had, its not like there is anything "slipping" in the hydraulics.... she digs in very well, but pulls the engine down substantially as one would expect. One must remember that I am turning higher tiller rpm as well.

My engine build/pump selection was rather happenstance... Its an engine I stumbled across at a swap meet and a pump off of ebay. My tractor holds its own in high range, but it is certainly not as usable for the same normal work I do with my Onan 20hp/stock pumped 448. On that one, I use high range 90% of the time because the engine/pump combo is dialed in pretty well. There is far less engine pull down when taking off in high range. I pretty much feel that if I had your 24hp on that same 13.7gpm, it would be more close to how my 20hp Onan/stock pump machines functionality.

I guess with all that said, moving up 2 gallons or so on your end would be doable, but I'm not sure you'd end up seeing it as having more power. You would have higher attachment rpm and higher mph speeds in both ranges.

Regarding my relief pressure, no, I have not cranked it up per say.... The thing is, my pump has a built in relief, and I run 3 travel valves. When I got it all plumbed, which was in stages, it just happened to fall into place. I can get the relief to squawk if the tiller gets a rock caught in it or if I flat out smack the tractor into forward in high range (low range just does wheel stands). I just lucked out with where its at.

But, because there are 3 TCV's (and a flow control), I do intend to walk thru each relief from front to back to dial them in. With what I have now, its hard to say exactly WHICH valve is relieving, and I would prefer to get them setup such that they are progressive in their operation. The pump should be set the highest and each subsequent valve slightly lower.

Personally, I think I would stick with a stock pump on your 24hp engine as you probably experience the most power you will get. More pump will just speed things up and drop power/torque. One final issue to be aware of when you run more gpm is when it is cold out, I've learned to be a little more patient with warm up as pushing that volume thru those little 1/2" tubes can be problematic. Most people dont realize that when cold, you can have some very high pressures in the return lines, and those are not at all as strong as the main pressure lines. After I blew off a hose of the return line and immediately threw 2 gallons of oil all over, I decided to put a gauge on the return line for giggles. I only had a 200psi gauge at the time and it pegged the needle at idle. At least now I know !

 

[arcaseing]

Thanks for the responses Grummy. I appreciate it!

I am not unhappy with the performance of my Ingy tiller or any of the other Hyd driven implements that I have. I was just kind of curious to know if there was a reasonable way to get more torque (I guess is the better fitting word) out of mainly the tiller...since I have some extra engine power to work with.

Am I correct in understanding that a higher working pressure than I have now is where you could get more torque to the "tiller tines" as long as you have enough engine HP to turn the pump at the optimum rpm? Don't worry, it is not something that I am going to try to do or anything...just wondering if that is the way it could be done. This of course, is predicated on the fact that the rest of the Hyd. system components could handle the extra pressure without overloading the system.

Does the size of the Hyd motor on the attachment/implement affect the torque output, (which is transferred to the tiller tines), providing of course that the tractor's hyd pump is large enough to supply the optimum amount of fluid to it?

 

[Bart]

When people talk about getting more "power" in the hydraulic system that can only happen with more gpm and/or more pressure. The pressure side of the equation is limited to protect the various components connected to the system, e.g. cylinders, motors, pumps, etc., most of which are designed to operate safely at around 2500 psi. To increase the pressure would necessitate replacing all of those components with ones rated at a higher pressure.

If you increase the gpm in the system that will carry more power (rpm) but not more torque. A modest increase in gpm will probably not adversely affect the hydraulic motors so you can speed up your snowcaster, hydravac and tiller.

To get more torque you will need to replace the hydraulic motors with higher displacement motors and they will produce more torque at a lesser rpm.

Also remember that as you increase the flow rate through pipes and fittings the amount of heat generated in the fluid increases and, at some flow rate, will damage the fluid and other components. Grummy is pushing his system with an approximate 50% increase above the design gpm which is ok because he enjoys taking it apart all the time and replacing things but, personally, I would not recommend it particularly for a tractor that will be used primarily for mowing and other warm weather tasks. To my knowledge Grummy's tractor sleeps most of the summer and only works in the winter when heat is less of an issue.

If I were looking to capture more of the engine hp for hydraulic applications I would probably go with 2 pumps driving separate circuits as on the loaders. One circuit could be used for the tiller, blower, mower and the other for drivetrain and attachment lift cylinders.

 

[arcaseing]

Thanks for the reply Bart! Sorry that I am so late in responding!

I understand your points about the speed (gpm) and torque (pressure and hyd motor size on attachments)

I don't think that I'll bother with changing out the Hyd motors on the attachments. If I had a tiller without the Hyd motor and a tractor project without any drivetrain, I might look into trying to go to a slightly higher gpm Pump and slightly larger motor on the tiller.

The dual pump setup would also be interesting to add to that type of project. But like I said earlier, I'm OK with the tractors and attachments performance in their current condition. I guess that I was just trying to see what all would have to be done and if was even feasible to attempt something like that.

Thanks for the replies fella's :smile: .