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If you could repower your tractor any engine on the market both used and new then what would it be? Would you switch to diesel or stay with gas. Discuss :222:
If you could repower your tractor..........
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I would stay with the original engine for two reasons. First, it will fit properly and you won't need to build a rube goldberg exhaust system or modify the hood. Second, you will preserve the resale value of the tractor. My only exception would be to upgrade from a lower hp Kohler to a larger one that will drop in as the original.
There is very little virtue in chasing hp as the only place added hp will do you any good is in powering the front attachment and it you can't fit a 60" deck on your tractor (many can't) then all you're going to get is a little more muscle on the snowblower.
Some may like the benefit of a more fuel efficient engine but the payback would be a long time unless you're using the tractor commercially for many hours a week.
There is very little virtue in chasing hp as the only place added hp will do you any good is in powering the front attachment and it you can't fit a 60" deck on your tractor (many can't) then all you're going to get is a little more muscle on the snowblower.
Some may like the benefit of a more fuel efficient engine but the payback would be a long time unless you're using the tractor commercially for many hours a week.
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Bart, that is a good answer and I can see where you are coming from on the resale value but as we all know, everyone uses their machines in a different manner and some just dont care about ever selling them. Im the type of guy that likes torque and horsepower but the limiting factor in our machines will be stock hydraulics.
You mention more muscle for the snowcaster and I bet that the majority of the members here that do have a snowcaster would like it work "better". I am one of them but I have to stop blaming the snowcaster for its less then perfect performance in 8"+ of wet snow. This is where more torque and horsepower play into this and that is why I made this tread. I want to hear what our members would change to (engine wise) if they could. I know some will keep what they have (like you) and that is 100% fine in my book. I want to hear what others would change to if they had the chance.
You mention more muscle for the snowcaster and I bet that the majority of the members here that do have a snowcaster would like it work "better". I am one of them but I have to stop blaming the snowcaster for its less then perfect performance in 8"+ of wet snow. This is where more torque and horsepower play into this and that is why I made this tread. I want to hear what our members would change to (engine wise) if they could. I know some will keep what they have (like you) and that is 100% fine in my book. I want to hear what others would change to if they had the chance.
Those who know me well...also know that both of my feet are planted firmly in Bart's camp when it comes to this discussion.
HOWEVER...........since this is more about make-believe, I'm willing play along.
In truth, I think that I'd be happy with any of the following.
- Kawasaki
- Honda
- Vanguard
- Kohler Command Pro
- Generac.
All of them are well-made long-lasting engines that are relatively trouble free. It's hard to find fault with any of those engines. Dan Haas uses a 27 hp Generac in one of his tractors and is very happy with the performance. Other owners have re-powered with one of the others I listed and they have no complaints either.
To me..... here's what matters when you conduct a re-power of the tractor.
- don't rush it. Think about what you are doing and take measurements. Some of these engines force you to make decisions that affect how the tractor looks such as making you raise the hood hinge point or modify the sides of hood for clearance. Vee-twins always pose an exhaust system challenge to find suitable muffler and to make up nice looking exhaust pipes. Using cast iron plumbing pipe is Mickey Mouse and it spoils the appearance.
Chopping out the top or sides of the hood also looks amateurish. Are you a craftsman or just another butcher with a cutting torch?
- getting the mechanical PTO clutch back onto these engines and then getting that clutch in the OEM position is a challenge but that's what separates the men from the boys
-making up a new wiring harness so that there are no splice butts to give trouble down the road also makes the job look more professional.
Lastly, don't do this re-power project unless you intend to keep the tractor a long, long time. Like it or not, your 1974 Case 446 is still a 1974 Case 446 when you go to sell it, whether it has a new $1500.00 engine in it or not. It's not much different from spending $20,000.00 on a backyard pool. You will not get twenty grand more for your house.
HOWEVER...........since this is more about make-believe, I'm willing play along.
In truth, I think that I'd be happy with any of the following.
- Kawasaki
- Honda
- Vanguard
- Kohler Command Pro
- Generac.
All of them are well-made long-lasting engines that are relatively trouble free. It's hard to find fault with any of those engines. Dan Haas uses a 27 hp Generac in one of his tractors and is very happy with the performance. Other owners have re-powered with one of the others I listed and they have no complaints either.
To me..... here's what matters when you conduct a re-power of the tractor.
- don't rush it. Think about what you are doing and take measurements. Some of these engines force you to make decisions that affect how the tractor looks such as making you raise the hood hinge point or modify the sides of hood for clearance. Vee-twins always pose an exhaust system challenge to find suitable muffler and to make up nice looking exhaust pipes. Using cast iron plumbing pipe is Mickey Mouse and it spoils the appearance.
Chopping out the top or sides of the hood also looks amateurish. Are you a craftsman or just another butcher with a cutting torch?
- getting the mechanical PTO clutch back onto these engines and then getting that clutch in the OEM position is a challenge but that's what separates the men from the boys
-making up a new wiring harness so that there are no splice butts to give trouble down the road also makes the job look more professional.
Lastly, don't do this re-power project unless you intend to keep the tractor a long, long time. Like it or not, your 1974 Case 446 is still a 1974 Case 446 when you go to sell it, whether it has a new $1500.00 engine in it or not. It's not much different from spending $20,000.00 on a backyard pool. You will not get twenty grand more for your house.
I'm with BART 101%. Am putting bigger K seris in both 210(12) and 220(14) and I have 18 Onan in 446. They have more torque and cubes than most of repower engines. As some know, I have access to Kohler Command, but still does not have brute power of my Onan's. I can't put 60" deck on my short well base 446 or 448.....any have not had issues w/blower, thou I plow w/220 most of the time. I'm NOT convinced of any of the repowers Tom mentioned will last the 25+ yrs these have.....if they last that long again it will be with the nest owner most likely!! IMHO Bob M
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Tom is familiar with my '83 446 with the 21HP Kawasaki, in fact my decision to purchase it was based mostly on his comments. This wasn't a home-brew repower, it was done with a kit from Jack's Small Engines.
The good:
First: 21 horses! I think that'll keep the snocaster happy.
A new good engine. Hopefully no worries about it for years. Shouldn't be hard to get parts. Has an oil filter that I can get at NAPA. Kawa made a series of these with the same block in various HP ratings, so if I were to need a replacement I could probably find one and do a direct swap (I don't plan on ever having to do this, but you never know).
I got the 446 with attachments for probably around the price of the engine alone. Not a good thing for you if you go to resell, good for the next buyer.
As far as I can see, it's 100% stock clutch, and pump.
The indifferent:
It fits fine, only concession to the non-stock engine is the hood is raised a few inches in front, not a big deal, IMO, but I'd prefer if it wasn't necessary.
I'm not happy with the wiring, I plan on replacing almost all of it because the old stuff is pretty old, and the new stuff wasn't done well, IMO (I'm fussy). This wouldn't be a concern if you do the install yourself.
The bad:
Exhaust. The way they stick out is ehh, but no worse than a lot of non-oem mufflers. At least they don't get in the way or blow exhaust on me. It's going to be a bitch when it comes time to replace them - I think these might have been made special for this.
It's not stock. But I plan on using it, not selling or showing.
The good:
First: 21 horses! I think that'll keep the snocaster happy.
A new good engine. Hopefully no worries about it for years. Shouldn't be hard to get parts. Has an oil filter that I can get at NAPA. Kawa made a series of these with the same block in various HP ratings, so if I were to need a replacement I could probably find one and do a direct swap (I don't plan on ever having to do this, but you never know).
I got the 446 with attachments for probably around the price of the engine alone. Not a good thing for you if you go to resell, good for the next buyer.
As far as I can see, it's 100% stock clutch, and pump.
The indifferent:
It fits fine, only concession to the non-stock engine is the hood is raised a few inches in front, not a big deal, IMO, but I'd prefer if it wasn't necessary.
I'm not happy with the wiring, I plan on replacing almost all of it because the old stuff is pretty old, and the new stuff wasn't done well, IMO (I'm fussy). This wouldn't be a concern if you do the install yourself.
The bad:
Exhaust. The way they stick out is ehh, but no worse than a lot of non-oem mufflers. At least they don't get in the way or blow exhaust on me. It's going to be a bitch when it comes time to replace them - I think these might have been made special for this.
It's not stock. But I plan on using it, not selling or showing.
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Bill, how far can you shoot snow with that rig?
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I have a difficult time believing that a good running, well tuned, STOCK engine and tractor would have any trouble completing the tasks that are asked of it. If the tractor will not accomplish what you attempting to do with it, are you asking too much from it? If 8" of wet snow is too much, is it possible that there are problems beyond the engine? People are free to make whatever alterations they feel are necessary, but necessary can be debated all day long.
Just my $.02
Just my $.02
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If there was a direct fit bolt up replacement I would go with a diesel. It's a shame Ingersoll didn't go in that direction more.
The performance of a snowcaster is not dependent solely on engine HP.
Quite often it comes down how the owner operates and maintains it. Now, there's no question that HP is needed to keep the auger/impeller spinning at full speed and that the type of snow being cleared is also a major factor.
To me, that's the criteria. If you can wade into the snow and your engine does not slow down very much, you already have enough HP and torque. If it does slow down, then the question you should ask yourself is "What is the true condition of my engine?"
If you bought a well-used tractor, then you likely bought a well-used engine that is now longer capable of delivering its rate HP. A rebuild of that engine will bring that HP back The other issue is the overall condition of the snowcaster. The are quite a few issues that can make a snowcaster perform badly and those should all be dealt with prior to considering an expensive re-power.
Quite often it comes down how the owner operates and maintains it. Now, there's no question that HP is needed to keep the auger/impeller spinning at full speed and that the type of snow being cleared is also a major factor.
To me, that's the criteria. If you can wade into the snow and your engine does not slow down very much, you already have enough HP and torque. If it does slow down, then the question you should ask yourself is "What is the true condition of my engine?"
If you bought a well-used tractor, then you likely bought a well-used engine that is now longer capable of delivering its rate HP. A rebuild of that engine will bring that HP back The other issue is the overall condition of the snowcaster. The are quite a few issues that can make a snowcaster perform badly and those should all be dealt with prior to considering an expensive re-power.
The price of a diesel engine is what kept them from going down that road. In England and Europe, a diesel would be readily embraced by the public.but not here. One of the prime reasons why the 3100/4100 models were dropped is because they were just priced too high and those were available with or without a diesel.Snotrocket said:
You also have to keep in mind that there were no cheap diesels back then like there are now.
I stuck in a brand spanking new B48G this year... new, not rebuilt. I can lug the engine down pretty darn good with snow rolled off into driveways from snowplows.... 48" wide is a lot of opening! I think next year I will go down a tooth on the small sprocket. I have plenty of throwing distance, so the one tooth drop might make a nice difference. I am currently up one tooth from stock (cant remember how many teeth it was now).Hydriv said:
Frankly, I'd take more torque/horsepower in a heartbeat for snow caster use. I bet Dan Haas' 27hp generac is dang nice... still not sure what width blower he was running. I assume a 48". Can you imagine a 27hp on a 38" caster ?
All that said, I would like to study the torque differences between a B48 and one of the two cylinder kubota or yanmar diesels we see being sold over at the surplus center. That might be something I will consider when I get to build an articulated. The 3 bangers would be a little too large and tight for me to imagine, though we know how nice the articingercase project fit under the hood.
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I really like the torque, simplicity, and parts cost/availability of the K341 in my 446. The only downside is vibration compared to an Onan. I have a 220PK that I bought minus engine and I wouldn't mind trying an air-cooled diesel Yanmar-clone from Carroll Stream just for something different.
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As long as we`re allowed to land on Fantasy Island, I`ll admit to the following pipe dreamsHydriv said:
BMW flat twin
VW Beetle flat four
Wisconsin V-4
Honda ST-1100 V-4
In reality, I`ll rebuild my Onans when the time comes. Perhaps my next C/I purchase will be Kohler powered.
A K341 16hp single in a 4XX would be nice.
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Ditto to that! When building something from the ground up you have a lot more options and there are a lot of good things about a diesel. I would probably look into ways to direct more engine power to the hydraulic system--using a dual pump like the 7020s would enable you to have two hydraulic systems.grummy said:
IFI were to repower with a different engine, (other than a bigger K series) it would likely be a small diesel.
Probably a 2 cylinder Kubota or Mitsubishi because I am sort of familiar with them and the 2 cylinder versions are really compact.
On the other hand I am still wavering between a K341 replacing my K321 in the 644,or just dropping in a 20HP Performer that I converted from vertical to horizontal.
In the loader, where I will never contemplate a mower the PTO question is not involved. Also, I don't believe the ability or lack of ability to mow, would hamper resale on a loader as it normally would.
Probably a 2 cylinder Kubota or Mitsubishi because I am sort of familiar with them and the 2 cylinder versions are really compact.
On the other hand I am still wavering between a K341 replacing my K321 in the 644,or just dropping in a 20HP Performer that I converted from vertical to horizontal.
In the loader, where I will never contemplate a mower the PTO question is not involved. Also, I don't believe the ability or lack of ability to mow, would hamper resale on a loader as it normally would.
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