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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

I didn't want to hijack the other thread. Here is the loader shown in the Ingersoll brochure I spoke about. I don't know why it posted so small. Tom or anyone, thoughts as to what this loader is? Was it the prototype compact utility tractor (CUT)?
:222: :446: Best Regards, Rich
 

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Rich..
That photo is way too small. Scan it, orient it, upload it to Photobucket and then paste the link into your next post.

Is there a date on that brochure? Look on the back page at the bottom for fine print.

Is that an Eastman brochure?
 

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That photo is a 4200 series with a prototype loader. As I understand, the loader design was led by Kwik-way and brought to completion for the Ingersoll application. Marketing materials were prepared in advance of engineering release.

In the end, Ingersoll decided not to endorse and release this accessory. As I understand it ... and many here have expressed this issue to inquiring loader fabricators ... the front end of the tractor simply did not stand up to the loads which this machine easily picks up. It was not a suitable value add on if throttled/relief valved down to acceptable loads.

We all know that these machines 'can' support a loader. However, when you have a tractor with 30 years durability well proven in the field ... you can't release an implement that can overwhelm the tractor.

I don't know if the resulting design is available from Kwik-way ... perhaps it is. I am following the factory and sensible recommendation that a loader should be on the 6000/7000 series ... and optimistically awaiting their return to the market.

The brochure is from mid-2008 printing.

Brian
 

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Rich, I got the e-mail. Just haven't had any time to do anything with it.


Brian confirmed what I suspected. I had heard that Kwik-way was working with Eastman on a loader project. As it stands now, Kwik-way is thinking about getting out of the garden tractor loader biz totally due to low demand. I think that they were hoping that the Eastman project would provide the bread and butter that would enable them to stay in the garden tractor aftermarket gravy segment.

As for the tractor in the photo, my understanding is that it was one of two prototypes built but it was the only one that got fully completed for testing. It was turned over to a certain Ingersoll employee who shall remain nameless and he kept it for several years as his own personal machine. Apparently, he sold it to someone outside of the company.

That's the tractor that Ingersoll should have built in 1990 because it has dual pumps in it. The drive is on one pump and the PTO is on the other. That system would have prevented many of the complaints about the old AH series. People put a bagger or vac trailer on the machine and then wondered why the deck stopped rotating as they climbed a hill on their property.

Trying to run three motors in series that are all under heavy load, just doesn't work. Back pressure is the problem. There were other big changes to that prototype such as a double acting power steering ram with rods at each end of the cylinder. The rear axle housing is wider, as is the front axle.

This is not the much promised 4400 but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the R&D from this one was applied to the 4400
 

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Tom, if that 4400 series ever makes it to market with diesel and 4WD it could fill a niche that Kubota hasn't addressed...a tractor with the tire size and ground clearance of a B series that takes up the same garage space as a BX series. I can see the ads...
"Ingersoll...the other orange tractor". Or maybe a new twist on the old IH Scout slogan...
"Ingersoll...Anything less is just a lawn mower".
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Appreciate the knowledgeable replies.

Brian I wonder if they got cold feet because of the loader issues discussed frequently. That would be bad press, that is , front axles breaking.

Tom I can appreciate those issues with the hydraulics, very interesting.

John its seems like there is a strong market for the CUT tractors. Can't understand why they didn't follow through. Now that would be a nice fabrication project, to replicate that tractor. Even put that little Caterpillar Diesel in they have at Surplus Supply.

I wonder if there are plans on the prototype somewhere at Ingersoll. That would be a nice thing to have in the Technical Library. And I wonder what power plant it has.

:222: :446: Best Regards, Rich
 

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InTroubleAlltheTime said:
Appreciate the knowledgeable replies.

Brian I wonder if they got cold feet because of the loader issues discussed frequently. That would be bad press, that is , front axles breaking.
Of course I have this all in 3rd hand anecdote, but I don't think they got cold feet. My understanding is they broke tractors! Ingersoll would not just mount this, run it up and down the driveway, lift one bucket of mulch, then put it in the field. They tested it and broke their tractors with it ... the front axles, as I understand.

Between the cost and limit of lift capacity to not break the tractors, it was judged not worth endorsing.

A lot of the small CUTs out there are rated at only about 400-500 lbs on the loader, though many will start to pick up much more. Load any of those buckets with stone and you've got 1000 pounds on. Load a 6000/7000 with stone and you've got a nice comfortable load, that wants decent counterweights on the tractor, but will result in the tractor being around 30 years from now ...

On top of that, many would love a loader on their old tractor, but this would have been released exclusively for the 4200 series. It only takes 2 hands to operate a loader on a 4200 with foot travel control.

What would you pay for a new, turn key loader, to mount to your 3 handed 400 series, that lifts only 400 lbs (my speculation)?

Bottom line ... not worth their trip on this level, but we keep hoping for 6000/7000 production and the rumored 4400.

Brian
 

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InTroubleAlltheTime said:
Appreciate the knowledgeable replies.

Brian I wonder if they got cold feet because of the loader issues discussed frequently. That would be bad press, that is , front axles breaking.

As I see it, they had a dilemma on their hands. They allowed Kwik-way to build a prototype FEL but as I understand it, this was supposed to be an "attachment". An attachment is something that anyone can buy....to add to a GT they already own. So let's say someone bought a 4223 PS in 2008 with a deck and used it for 2 years before deciding he needed an FEL for the hobby farm he just bought. His 4223PS must be "loader ready". So.. what does it mean for it to be "loader ready"? In my opinion, it should have a beefier front axle that has king pins with roller bearings, heavier spindles, bolt-on front rims and axle hubs with tapered roller races. It also needs a hydraulic system with Power Beyond capabilities that support a pair of quick couplers for the loader to attach to. The loader needs to be a Kwik-Tach model that has its own support system when it is disconnected from the tractor.

While all of the above sounds great, it really isn't. What it does is this. It forces Eastman to build EVERY 4223 to that spec, thus substantially raising the price of the tractor. Some people will never buy a FEL. They just want the 4223 that Eastman offers now and they don't want to pay for something they will never use. And if those mods push the price too close to the next tier of tractor, then people will jump to a true sub-cut and get a limited CAT 1 hitch, diff lock and a few more goodies for about the same money.


Tom I can appreciate those issues with the hydraulics, very interesting.

John its seems like there is a strong market for the CUT tractors. Can't understand why they didn't follow through. Now that would be a nice fabrication project, to replicate that tractor. Even put that little Caterpillar Diesel in they have at Surplus Supply.

CUT????? No.. I would not classify that is being a CUT. At best, it's a sub-CUT.

I wonder if there are plans on the prototype somewhere at Ingersoll. That would be a nice thing to have in the Technical Library. And I wonder what power plant it has. I'm sure that drawings do exist but they will never be released by the company. Those are proprietary plans that may have ideas that might be utilized on future tractors.

:222: :446: Best Regards, Rich
 

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I believe the photo is from the Cherry Valley show last August and that tractor is but one of the unusual Ingersoll tractors on display. There was also a prototype update of the T-90. I recommend this show to everyone who wants to see something other than nicely restored common models. I understand Dan is planning to display his very rare Diesel power zero turn from Ingersoll along with several one of a kind factory prototypes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Bart said:
I believe the photo is from the Cherry Valley show last August and that tractor is but one of the unusual Ingersoll tractors on display. There was also a prototype update of the T-90. I recommend this show to everyone who wants to see something other than nicely restored common models. I understand Dan is planning to display his very rare Diesel power zero turn from Ingersoll along with several one of a kind factory prototypes.
Bart That's correct. I downloaded a bunch of photos of very nice C&I GTs that were displayed on a link from that show.
:222: :446: Best Regards, Rich
 

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The prototype front loader was ultimately set up with an independent hydraulic system, exactly due to the technical, installation, and marketing problems of tapping in to the main hydraulics. An original prototype was run off the rear PTO, but as would be expected if proved far too quirky in the interaction with travel speed. An independent, belt driven system was the easy and robust solution, as with many other Kwik-way models.

I never got to unmount the loader, but that also appears to be a bit of a handful. It was tied in to the rear axle for structure and would never have been like some sub-CUTS where you simply have a parking stand and pull some pins.

Brian
 
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