[pulse301]

I'm hoping someone has a magic bean for me, that will make my tractor purr again like it did for about 2 minutes the other day. Here is my story:

I bought this tractor a few weeks ago because I wanted to start mowing with it. You may or may not remember me announcing it on the forum. Anyways, when I got it home, I fired it up and drove it off the truck, it didn't run good, but it ran. Anyways, I bought a carb kit for it, (it is a Carter Model N #26, so the correct carb) and rebuilt the carburetor. If you're interested, you can watch:

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktLj0zebqCM

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqggaB5fbJs

(I will add those links to the new tractor checklist I started a few weeks ago).

Anyways...again...I put the carb back on the tractor, and I bought a new Autolite 216 spark plug, gapped it to .035, grounded it to the engine, and notice the spark was kind of erratic. So I followed the static timing method, using a multimeter and if I set my gap to 0.018, the Resistance goes to infinity at the exact moment I see the "S" centered into the sight hole. When i set it to .020, the points would break before the S was there, and at .015, it would break after the S passed the sight hole. I fired it up one time, and it ran so beautifully, smooth as silk, no smoke...then ti started kinda cutting out just ever so often...then again...then suddenly it died. I checked the timing again, still breaking the exact moment the S is centered int he timing hole. Pull the plug, ground it, I get a beautiful blue spark. I tried spaying some ether in there, still not firing. I unhooked the gas line from the fuel pump to the carb, and tried turning it over, gas pumped out. It SEEMS like i am getting gas and spark, but she just won't turn over. I thought maybe the battery is weak, so I trickle charged it, same result. Then I tried turning the charger to "boost", same result. I switched the coil and condenser to known good ones (well admittedly I first tried ones I had laying around and then I thought, you idiot, just take the one off your cub, you know it works).

What should I do next? I'm thinking I could clean all the grounds, but I'm getting a good spark, so I seriously doubt that is the problem. I can take my starter apart, and clean it, it is the motor type, not the starter/gen, and it squeaks pretty bad, so it obviously needs a good cleaning, etc. But it does turn over the engine. I tried a champion H10C plug but same result. I'm just baffled, can anyone suggest some more troubleshooting ideas?

Thanks,
Dusty

 

[mastifflawyer]

Have you tried giving it a good bit of ether to see if it hits? I am thinking fuel because you have said it has good spark. If you had said the spark was not strong or was intermittent I would suspect an electrical issue of which I am rapidly becoming quite an expert.
Try the either again and let us know..

It is also possible that the carb float is hanging up. That could account for it cutting out and then dying.

 

[pulse301]

Have you tried giving it a good bit of ether to see if it hits? I am thinking fuel because you have said it has good spark. If you had said the spark was not strong or was intermittent I would suspect an electrical issue of which I am rapidly becoming quite an expert.
Try the either again and let us know..

It is also possible that the carb float is hanging up. That could account for it cutting out and then dying.

I have been thinking about the carb float a lot, maybe I should remove the carb and make sure the float is actually 11/64" away from the carb body...what a random measurement.

When it comes to the ether, should I spray some in the cylinder first, then continually spray it in the carb as I'm trying to turn it over? Or should I spray liberally then turn the choke to about 1/2 - 2/3 and then try to get it to turn over?

Thanks

 

[mastifflawyer]

You should not need that much either. If it was going to hit just a decent shot to the carb should do it.

 

[pulse301]

OK, I'll give it a try tomorrow, hopefully on my lunch break, I'll let you know the results.

 

[Hydriv]

Don't go crazy with the ether.

Leave the choke totally off. Remove the air cleaner filter and cover. Set them aside. Spin the engine over and give a half second burst of ether directly into the throat of the carb with the throttle set at the half-way open point. That's it. If the engine does not fire, then you have a spark issue or you have a valve that is hung up. This might be the right time to check the compression. We have Kohler manuals in the engine section of the Service Manuals that make good reading.

 

[pulse301]

Darn work got in the way of play today, so hopefully i can test this tomorrow. I will let you guys know of the results.

 

[Snotrocket]

Make sure you listen to Tom's advice on the ether or you'll be sorry.

A quick half second squirt is all you'll need. If you want to repeat the test using the ether wait a minute or two for it to clear before trying it again.

 

[pulse301]

Make sure you listen to Tom's advice on the ether or you'll be sorry.

A quick half second squirt is all you'll need. If you want to repeat the test using the ether wait a minute or two for it to clear before trying it again.

Roger that, I take it you are saying I want the engine to go boom with a half second spray and not KABOOM by soaking it?

BTW, I am posting this from my Droid 2 and I must say, the site works great on it.

 

[pulse301]

Well I sprayed a half second of ether in there with the throttle around 2/3 and it fired right up...roughly, but fired, then it died. So I let everything sit for ~30 minutes, then I went over, did full choke, wide open throttle, and turned it over for a few seconds and then immediately pulled the plug, expecting it to be flooded. It wasn't, the plug was dry. So I'm thinking fuel flow issue. So here is my throughts for troubleshooting:

1. Clear hole in gas cap to make sure it can breath and not creating vacuum.
2. Take off new fuel filter and put old one on there, or possibly bypass it for now if I can.
3. If that doesn't work, remove carb and check spacing on float and make sure needle isn't sticking.

Any more suggestions?

Thanks!
Dusty

 

[Hydriv]

Are you sure that the new fuel filter is installed the correct way? Many of them have an arrow on the outer case to show which direction the fuel is supposed to flow.

What condition are your fuel lines in? Are they hard and stiff? If so, then maybe there is air getting sucked into the hardened line right where it is pushed onto the fuel filter. New lines are the answer.

Did you remove the fuel line from the carb and then spin the engine over to see if the pump is pumping?


And if it is pumping.... did you remove the float bowl on the carb to see if fuel was reaching it? Maybe you have a stuck float or sticking needle and seat. With the float bowl off, spin the engine and see if fuel is getting past the needle and seat.

 

[pulse301]

Are you sure that the new fuel filter is installed the correct way? Many of them have an arrow on the outer case to show which direction the fuel is supposed to flow.

Yes, just checked it now and the arrow points FROM the tank to the fuel pump.

What condition are your fuel lines in? Are they hard and stiff? If so, then maybe there is air getting sucked into the hardened line right where it is pushed onto the fuel filter. New lines are the answer.

They are soft and squeezable, but old. Replacing is cheap, so i might as well do it anyways. Plus the things that squeeze the line onto the connections, some are not the screw clamps but rather the spring type retention clips, maybe that is letting in air? Is there any type of sealant I should sue when attaching new lines, or is the tightening down the screw on the clamp sufficient?

Did you remove the fuel line from the carb and then spin the engine over to see if the pump is pumping?

Yes I did, and when I did that, it pumped fuel, what seemed to me, to be a very good flow.

And if it is pumping.... did you remove the float bowl on the carb to see if fuel was reaching it? Maybe you have a stuck float or sticking needle and seat. With the float bowl off, spin the engine and see if fuel is getting past the needle and seat.

Why didn't I do that?! That's do much smarter than what I was going to do. I was going to take the carb off, put a fuel line on there and try to pour some water in to see if it would flow. Work smarter not harder, right?!

I would like to try these tonight, but I probably won't get a chance until Thursday, I'll let you know the progress.

 

[Hydriv]

It does not sound as though your fuel lines are the problem but if they are old, then getting new lines that will withstand the alcohol fuels found at the pumps these days would be a good move. Do not use gear clamps/worm drive clamps. The spring clamps are the best for this application.

 

[mastifflawyer]

At least it is not an electrical issue. I only suggest the ether blast for troubleshooting. I also blast a little under NutCase's hood when he is sandblasting.

Ok all of Tom's suggestions are good ones. My guess is that it is going to be the carb. Since you rebuilt it, it is likely that it is the culprit.. Since your original post mentioned that it ran for a while, got rough and then quit, I suspect that you are going to find that it has something to do with the float.

Changing the fuel lines is always a good idea.

Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[gator_rider2]

I view video's one thing I did not see was passage cleared in Idle or main run small stiff wire all way through all holes in carburetor if see wire end in venture its open but still need work wire around brake up passage plugging. Then blow air through holes. B12 carb. spray cleaner with straw until see spray coming into venture is good sign safety glasses must to keep out eyes. you need to do both Idle and main passages.

When choke applied more gas pulled through Idle passage this give crank up all ways leave throttle butterfly in Idle position this make vacuum pull more gas for startup.

When soak carburetor that get plugging material softer will not remove it from passages.

You can crank engine on carb. cleaner safest way.

Ether only good for finding small hydraulic leaks as dry's fast.

 

[pulse301]

Well here is the update...and boy do I feel stupid. So I went through the K series manual for the fuel section specifically the troubleshooting on the flow. Well, in reality the first thing I did was remove the carb bowl and make sure the needle wasn't sticking, and it was not, I was very happy about that. But then I turned the engine over and all I got was a tiny drop of fuel. I also sprayed some gumout through all the holes in the carb, to make sure there were no blockages, but I did that with the gumout and air when I rebuilt it, but I figured it couldn't hurt to do it again.

Anyways, so I see that I'm getting no fuel, well that's weird, right?! So I did the troubleshooting section. And the first thing it suggests is disconnecting from the inlet on the pump and bringing it below the fuel level to make sure fuel pours out...well...it didn't. OMG I WAS OUT OF GAS. I'M STUPID.

OK, so i"m over that moment of "good grief, how stupid can I be?!" I hooked the fuel line back up, and I've turned the engine over a few times, maybe 10 seconds or so, and it didn't fire, but I don't think it would turn over that quick, right? I can't find in the manual a few things:

1. What type of fuel filter should I replace the old one with. I replaced it with a NAPA Gold 3011. Is that OK? Or should I have just used a regular gravity fed filter?

2. Do I need to prime the fuel system somehow? I couldn't find it in the manual, so I assume it is self priming. If so, how long does that take? Am I looking at a minute or two of trying to turn it over, or should the 10 seconds have been enough?

3. Should my fuel filter stay full of fuel also? Or should I expect it to stay mostly empty?

4. How hilarious/ignorant is it that I didn't shine a flashlight in the tank like 2 weeks ago?! Oy vey.

Thanks!

 

[mikebramel]

Funny

Priming the tank will take less than 10 seconds

 

[Hydriv]

Remove the fuel line from the carb and spin the engine over while the end of the fuel line is in a clean container.

Is fuel being pumped or not?


Now that you are dead positive that you have fuel in the tank, that's what you need to determine.

If the fuel pump isn't delivering fuel to the empty container, then it isn't putting any in the carb to be burnt either. :thumbsup:

 

[kjkansasdan]

Well here is the update...and boy do I feel stupid. So I went through the K series manual for the fuel section specifically the troubleshooting on the flow. Well, in reality the first thing I did was remove the carb bowl and make sure the needle wasn't sticking, and it was not, I was very happy about that. But then I turned the engine over and all I got was a tiny drop of fuel. I also sprayed some gumout through all the holes in the carb, to make sure there were no blockages, but I did that with the gumout and air when I rebuilt it, but I figured it couldn't hurt to do it again.

Anyways, so I see that I'm getting no fuel, well that's weird, right?! So I did the troubleshooting section. And the first thing it suggests is disconnecting from the inlet on the pump and bringing it below the fuel level to make sure fuel pours out...well...it didn't. OMG I WAS OUT OF GAS. I'M STUPID.

OK, so i"m over that moment of "good grief, how stupid can I be?!" I hooked the fuel line back up, and I've turned the engine over a few times, maybe 10 seconds or so, and it didn't fire, but I don't think it would turn over that quick, right? I can't find in the manual a few things:

1. What type of fuel filter should I replace the old one with. I replaced it with a NAPA Gold 3011. Is that OK? Or should I have just used a regular gravity fed filter?

2. Do I need to prime the fuel system somehow? I couldn't find it in the manual, so I assume it is self priming. If so, how long does that take? Am I looking at a minute or two of trying to turn it over, or should the 10 seconds have been enough?

3. Should my fuel filter stay full of fuel also? Or should I expect it to stay mostly empty?

4. How hilarious/ignorant is it that I didn't shine a flashlight in the tank like 2 weeks ago?! Oy vey.

Thanks!

If it makes you feel any better, you aren't the only one who has spent more than the appropriate amount of time (though NOT two weeks) diagnosing an empty fuel tank. Sure makes you feel stupid when you figure it out (don't ask me how I know). :grin:

Dan.

 

[pulse301]

OK, so I did the other test today. I disconnected the fuel line at the inlet of the carb and turned the engine over, and gas squirted out! How exciting. So I hooked it back up, started turning the engine over and it would not fire. So I took the plug off, grounded it, and no spark....WHAT?!

I changed the coil and a plug wire, got a spark for just long enough to put it back in the engine, hear it almost fire (it actually started for a second), and then, nothing. And now I can't get spark again. I took the points cover off to see if I was getting spark at the points, and I'm not. I went ahead and got some sandpaper out to clean the points, and tried again, no spark.

So I'm thinking I will take the points off of my cub engine that is a k301 sitting on my work bench to see if they will work. Am I going down the right path by doing that? Or is this more likely a condenser issue? I can't really find anything in the manual about troubleshooting them, besides gap it and change the points/condenser/coil.

And for the record, I didn't spend a total of 2 weeks finding out I was out of gas, if I added all the time up, it was probably 6 hours...of course that is 5:59 too long...and I guess over the 2 weeks I could have just went in the basement and checked...but whatever, hahahaha.