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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi Everyone,

I wonder, if possible, could someone let me know the following information?

I'd like to know, from either a Case 648/6018/6020 or 7020 what would be the following measurements, (all these cylinders, from these models, are the same)

From center/center of mounting pins, what is the closed length, and the open length of the cylinder?

What is the bore size and rod diameter?

It would be greatly appreciated, thanks

Lionel
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Okay, so I'm going to post a pretend picture, what do you guys think, would something like this rendition work?

Oh,, and the picture,, well I didn't do well in school as an "artist" so please pardon that in advance,,:)

Standard typical steering to hydraulic steering. The only place I have space for a steering valve, is on the left side of the tractor. So, Typically, the steering wheel shaft goes straight down to the steering gear. My question is, with a couple of universal joints could you take, say just under the dash, orient the shaft so it's heading towards the left side of the tractor, and once you're there, another universal joint, to line up to the steering valve,, what do you think?

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Unlike a drive shaft there is no risk of vibrations, low speed. It would depend on how many turns it will take from "lock to lock" on the steering valve to determine if you will have a rotational issue, but even if you did you can compensate. When you use a u-joint at greater angles the output shaft varies in speed per revolution. Solution clock it with a second one at the same angle to cancel that effect out. Or use a CV joint. The more turns it takes the smaller the effect will be verses a 1/2" turn lock to lock would be the worst (for linear steering).

 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Unlike a drive shaft there is no risk of vibrations, low speed. It would depend on how many turns it will take from "lock to lock" on the steering valve to determine if you will have a rotational issue, but even if you did you can compensate. When you use a u-joint at greater angles the output shaft varies in speed per revolution. Solution clock it with a second one at the same angle to cancel that effect out. Or use a CV joint. The more turns it takes the smaller the effect will be verses a 1/2" turn lock to lock would be the worst (for linear steering).

Well, that was interesting, (that video clip) makes sense although I wouldn't have thought of it. Excellent post!

Lionel
 

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Ran into this building a go-cart. I used a rack and pinion on an old solid front axle. I used the rack, u-joints and steering column from the donor car but due to the complex routing one ended up at about 20 deg +/- 5 deg and the other one is at 50 +/- 10 deg with suspension travel on the axle (I had to go under the motor mount plus have a 10" slip joint). It ended up being around 5 turns lock to lock, but you can still tell that the steering is non linear. But on that machine your steering is reactive so it's not that big of a deal. Doing precise work with our loaders that would drive me nuts if the steering was not linear. But if your over 2 turns you should be fine.

The steering I used was from a little Ford pony. The u-joints are very small and light but strong (If they didn't break where I used you would be good for life, LOL). I know the routing through those tractors and wow, steep angles like my install may be un-avoidable. Another option would be to double up the center u-joint in your picture (like a double cardan joint) and clock the two shafts that would cancel all of the angular issues, you would need to support the shafts because they would flop around as they wouldn't self center like a CV, A nice rod end bearing would work.

I look forward to this project, I require power steering on my backhoe!! Although mine will be easier as it is a backhoe. The sub-frame will never be removed so I can mount the steering valve directly under the steering column and still have tons of clearance. But I'm bumped up to 12.9 GPM and the CCKA doesn't like that, My worry is the priority valve and how much back pressure it will create to pull the pressure off for the steering. I was playing with the idea of leaving the power beyond TCV out (I have a regular 446 one installed) and installing a second smaller pump to run the steering and loader off of the front of the motor. (I have contaminated oil so I need to drain the entire unit, just want to do all of the mods at the same time. And add a filter somewhere!!!!)
 

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Yeah. Those are heavy duty though. There are smaller/cheaper but I cannot remember where I seen them. If your on a budget try a wrecking yard. The Pony that I robbed the parts from has decent u-joint due to the fact that they don't have power steering. The GM FWD cars (w-bodies) have a double I believe. Those cars are a dime a dozen. I can snap a pic of one in the next few days.

Now that you have factory power steering are you still proceeding with this? Congrats by the way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Yeah. Those are heavy duty though. There are smaller/cheaper but I cannot remember where I seen them. If your on a budget try a wrecking yard. The Pony that I robbed the parts from has decent u-joint due to the fact that they don't have power steering. The GM FWD cars (w-bodies) have a double I believe. Those cars are a dime a dozen. I can snap a pic of one in the next few days.

Now that you have factory power steering are you still proceeding with this? Congrats by the way.
Thanks,
I'm now going to go in a holding pattern till I get my hands on the other little guy. Adding power steering to a 646 I don't think,, would be too difficult.(I say that, without having done it, so the actual could be a whole lot different).
My thought process so far, was to add power steering, minimizing the fab work to the frame itself, by adapter plates mounted in the holes that are available from OEM. So, if a person was to remove the lower steering gear, base and all, that gives you a very nice place to mount a steering pump to a prefab mounting assembly, and then mount that assembly where the steering gear base plate was bolted to,, end result is, no drilling and or welding to the frame (ie, minimizing incidental damage to a freshly restored tractor). In that lower left quadrant, where that steering gear plate is bolted, well just above that area, there is more then ample room to add a steering valve in this area.

To somewhat align the steering valve to the top of the steering wheel, just under the dash,, the adapter plate for the steering valve would have to have a flat bottom to bolt up to the frame,, and then "somewhat of a channel bent back upon itself, where the steering valve would bolt onto,, thereby, placing the steering valve at a 30/40 degree angle from horizontal. The rest, of the connection, valve to steering wheel, steering shaft, universal joint, connected up just as it exits under the dash. That would complete this part of the install with absolutely no cutting or hacking of what is currently there, (other then the steering wheel shaft)

The positioning of the steering cylinder,, seems to be the easiest portion in all of this, requires one hole drilled horizontally across a support and into the frame, to mount the base of the cylinder. It would seem the cylinder stroke is approx 2.5" or there abouts and the key to this part is to maintain movement of the front axle (up/down) I think the ball joints of the cylinder takes care of that.

Hose connections, and I think a guy is done with out unduly damaging what's there.

The one area that may need further attention would be the adapter arm that connects to the front left steering wheel axle. It's currently keyed and held down with a bolt. The PS ones, have the same style, but I believe it is both keyed and splined, so a guy could question if the current key only style, would handle the added stress.

I don't think you can mount a steering valve like say the case 648 has under the dash for a couple of reasons. I think, the main reason is, Case slid the 2 control levers outwards by a tiny bit, to enable that valve to get mounted up in there. (I'll know, once I get my hands on the 648)
The approx cost of doing the above upgrade, done so it looks like it was a factory thing, I'd budgeted $600 US for that little upgrade. The main cost is the steering cylinder, 50% of the cost. A guy could probably get something cheaper but then again, quite often, you end up with something that works, but not quite like an OEM look (so to speak).

We shall see.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think I'm fairly close on my thinking.

Adding power steering to a 646 isn't as simple as taking components off say a 648 and sticking it on.

I think, in order to install the steering valve on a loader tractor, Case moved the 2 dash levers ever so slightly outwards.

By looking at the 2 dash decals, you can see how they did it. I don't think they moved everything around on the dash decal, they just moved 3 or 4 of the wording/lines to compensate for that lever relocation. So anyone think a steering valve would fit on a 646, up under the dash,, I don't think it does.

If you look closely as to where the lever holes line up,, you can see those minor little tweaks.

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WOW! looks to e about a good 1/2" or so on each side, or more. The bolt pattern for the sector indicates it is not square with the dash, unless the Case sector is different form JD the bolts are on 4 corners, witch would make the sector 4" wide ruffly. They also may have moved the center hole ahead, as the bolts holes are ahead of the center line of the control rods.............Curt
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Now that you mention it Curt,

I hadn't noticed that steering wheel. Looks like they moved it up by perhaps an inch or so.. Looking at the slots for the throttle cable, is another indication of that move,
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
So, I've been emailing another member on here and he sent me some info which is intriguing. His question/thought was, why not stick a hydraulic control valve onto the drag link. It's interesting because you can stick one end of the control valve ball joint into the existing steering gear, whiles the other end goes into the upper steering arm of the spindle.
Stick on a cylinder from frame to a steering arm on the opposite spindle,, plumb it up, and I do believe you'd have power steering, whiles still utilizing the existing steering gear.

I see that quite a few green machines have been converted to power steering in this manner,, but nowhere's can I find someone having done this to any case loader, (for example)

So, my question is, anyone familiar with a steering control valve as in the below picture?

Thoughts as to how something like this would work?
 

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Our parts Cockshutt 542 has this style of steering and it is on most other brands too of that vintage. The combines we use have the normal style and I have never used these. So did they upgrade to save money or because the design has flaws? Routing the steering rods through the machine front to back is a lot harder than an couple lines. If you come get the 648 you can stop by and grab the valve, someone stole the cylinder, the part we could use on our good machine. The Massey 92 may have a valve on it too???
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Our parts Cockshutt 542 has this style of steering and it is on most other brands too of that vintage. The combines we use have the normal style and I have never used these. So did they upgrade to save money or because the design has flaws? Routing the steering rods through the machine front to back is a lot harder than an couple lines. If you come get the 648 you can stop by and grab the valve, someone stole the cylinder, the part we could use on our good machine. The Massey 92 may have a valve on it too???
Tentatively, my plan is to head over there the week of March 20th for pickup. I thought I had a ride for it this coming Monday,, but I just can't have someone else's wife pick it up, (the offer was made) but I think that's asking for a bit much from her.

Anyways, come March, or maybe earlier (depends how antsy I get) I may just take you up on that.

I'm not sure what the shortfall of this type of valve is. They did seem to be widely used at one time, lots of guys still upgrade their steering with it, but as you indicate, it's a lot easier just to go to the new styled valves on the steering shafts,, versus having to put in a steering gear, drag link, and connections for that, and then add a cylinder on to it as well. Maybe as a retro fit, it might make sense though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The above valve I posted, would provide for;
Power assisted steering which has a complete mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front tires... It is just hydraulically boosted.

The other style, which has a steering valve say, under the dash, would provide for Hydostatic steering which has no complete mechanical link, and depends solely on hydraulics for steering control.

the primary advantages are for the manufacturer... With hydrostatic steering there is no need to design and build a tractor around the need for any mechanical link to the front tires... This is potentially a very big advantage in such areas as design flexibility, parts costs, and assemble-ability (three factors that are more important to manufacturers than most people realize.
 

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There would be somewhat of a maniacal link through the cylinder, to the tires. But what it does eliminate is the mechanical or manual gear box, and makes for more trouble free setup...............Curt
 
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