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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I picked up a Massey furguson 316gtx.
The engine tag says kohler M16QS the spec number from what I can tell (might be missing the first number 24670) when I do a quick search comes up as an 18 hp made by ingersoll. I was just curious if any one else has had this issue or maybe I just can’t seem to find the correct opposing twin16hp parts diagram they all seem to come up as a single cylinder
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Yes I have looked at that manual. Just was saying I believe it is labeled incorrectly
I don't think it's mislabelled. It looks to me like the "24670" is only for the "M18" motor, which was supplied to Ingersoll Rand, not Case Ingersoll, and not Massey Ferguson.

The M16QS engine spec's out to the factory engine in a Massey 316GTX as found here: Massey Ferguson 316Gtx Lawn Tractor Tractor Specifications

Of course, they say it's "77 hp" which I'm confident is a typo. :)

Bob
 

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Check out this link.:cool:

Yes, as best I can tell that's M18 out of a 1990 Ingersoll Rand. Not an M16QS out of a (what year?) Massey Ferguson manufactured by Case Lawn Equipment.

I'm not certain, and I'm not claming to be an authority. But that's how it looks to me.

Bob
 

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The spec 24670 is identified as Ingersoll Equipment, not Ingersoll Rand. Totally makes sense with the install to the Massey, which used Kohler Magnums twins instead of the Onan used in the Ingersoll branded tractors.

That all makes sense and yes the ARI powered catalogs do identify this as a M18. But equally, the Kohler model coding beginning with 24 also identifies this as a M18. The QS code indicates the "quiet model" and "electric start"

No question you ID tag looks original, though.

Interesting, the M16's, like the K361's before that, are single cylinder models. The M16 model numbering explicitly use codes 7115xx.


So a bit of a mystery there in the M16QS on the label.

We do know there were a few other examples with Vanguard engines where Ingersoll marketed a tractor as 16hp (e.g. 4016), but installed a 18hp engine. The engines were labelled correctly to the engine mfg codes, however. Best I understand, that had only to do with availability of engines, at the time. Another of our manufacturers has made unique little substitutions like that due to availabiltiy, also.

Leaves me to wonder if MF requested unique code labelling to identify the boxer twin as a M16 ... for marketing purposes.

Fun discoveries ...

Brian
 

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The spec 24670 is identified as Ingersoll Equipment, not Ingersoll Rand. Totally makes sense with the install to the Massey, which used Kohler Magnums twins instead of the Onan used in the Ingersoll branded tractors.

That all makes sense and yes the ARI powered catalogs do identify this as a M18. But equally, the Kohler model coding beginning with 24 also identifies this as a M18. The QS code indicates the "quiet model" and "electric start"

No question you ID tag looks original, though.

Interesting, the M16's, like the K361's before that, are single cylinder models. The M16 model numbering explicitly use codes 7115xx.


So a bit of a mystery there in the M16QS on the label.

We do know there were a few other examples with Vanguard engines where Ingersoll marketed a tractor as 16hp (e.g. 4016), but installed a 18hp engine. The engines were labelled correctly to the engine mfg codes, however. Best I understand, that had only to do with availability of engines, at the time. Another of our manufacturers has made unique little substitutions like that due to availabiltiy, also.

Leaves me to wonder if MF requested unique code labelling to identify the boxer twin as a M16 ... for marketing purposes.

Fun discoveries ...

Brian
This, in addition to everything else, is pretty definitive I stand corrected.

Congratulations on your free HP upgrade!

Bob
 

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Ok, now that I think about it, I may have something to add. I have a little experience with the Kohler quiet series engines.
In order to get the engine to run quiter, they took a larger engine and governed it down so that it ran at lower RPM. So the larger than necessary engine block/cylinder/piston produced the designated horsepower at around half the "ideal" RPM.

I got a Kohler 12HP "quiet" enginge out of a generator. It's actually a 16HP engine that was set up to run at something like 1800 rpm. These engines can be boosted back up to 3600 RPM and get the full HP out of them, but the carb's themselves are undersized and can't be "adjusted" upwards. In my case I just had to buy a carb specified for the 16HP "loud" version of that kohler engine.

So that explains it: you have a "Quiet" 16 hp engine, which is to say, an 18HP engine that's been inentionally governed down to where it only produces 16HP.

The model as sold is "16hp" while the physical engine code is the same as their "normal" 18HP. As I say, if you want to boost it up to 18HP, you'll probably have to replace the carb(s). You can find info about it on the web.

Bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Very interesting stuff. It may be it was for marketing. I just came across another massey 316gtx on Facebook that has a single cylinder 16 hp in it. So it looks to me what I have is a Massey 316gtx with an 18 hp twin labeled as a 16 and and an 18 I find it very unique and interesting. It helps in the parts searching department for sure. That would explain why I could not find a twin 16 hp kohler while searching for m16qs only a single cylinder engine.

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@tonyjd21 Does the 16HP twin run at this time? At full throttle is it only around 2000 RPM or so?

If it were the factory engine, they surely would have chosen a higher displacement pump for it, since you need to get the standard (about 8 or 9) gallons per minute out of the pump at the "quiet" engine's reduced RPM level.

But if someone just bought a "quiet" version engine and stuck it in there as a replacement, then it's surely mismatched to the pump, only producing 4 or 5 GPM, much lower than ideal. If you did that, you'd find yourself with a much slower tractor than normal.

Bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
@tonyjd21 Does the 16HP twin run at this time? At full throttle is it only around 2000 RPM or so?

If it were the factory engine, they surely would have chosen a higher displacement pump for it, since you need to get the standard (about 8 or 9) gallons per minute out of the pump at the "quiet" engine's reduced RPM level.

But if someone just bought a "quiet" version engine and stuck it in there as a replacement, then it's surely mismatched to the pump, only producing 4 or 5 GPM, much lower than ideal. If you did that, you'd find yourself with a much slower tractor than normal.

Bob
It does run. I have only messed with it a little. it seems to run good plenty of power. I put my case tiller on and made a few swipes in the garden with it. It seems to be good to me. I actually was only buying it for the rear hydrolic control and sleeve hitch but it’s in better shape than I had expected the hour meter on it is in the mid 300’s the previous owner had it for some time I believe he got it on a trade he said it literally sat in his lawn for quite some time and he was cleaning up time for it to go. After a 3 hour ride one way and $300 it was all mine
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It does run. I have only messed with it a little. it seems to run good plenty of power. I put my case tiller on and made a few swipes in the garden with it. It seems to be good to me. I actually was only buying it for the rear hydrolic control and sleeve hitch but it’s in better shape than I had expected the hour meter on it is in the mid 300’s the previous owner had it for some time I believe he got it on a trade he said it literally sat in his lawn for quite some time and he was cleaning up time for it to go. After a 3 hour ride one way and $300 it was all mine
Also on tractor data.com it has the 16 hp and the 18 hp both listed as twin cylinders which the same displacement maybe a typo maybe not
 

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@tonyjd21 Does the 16HP twin run at this time? At full throttle is it only around 2000 RPM or so?

If it were the factory engine, they surely would have chosen a higher displacement pump for it, since you need to get the standard (about 8 or 9) gallons per minute out of the pump at the "quiet" engine's reduced RPM level.

But if someone just bought a "quiet" version engine and stuck it in there as a replacement, then it's surely mismatched to the pump, only producing 4 or 5 GPM, much lower than ideal. If you did that, you'd find yourself with a much slower tractor than normal.

Bob
Wouldn’t you also have a slower running mower deck. ? If so, did they change the pulleys to speed the deck up. ?
Tractordata doesn't say what rpm the engine is at when making the 16 hp or the 18 hp.
Interesting reading.

Noel
 

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About engine RPM, deck blade tip speed and Kohler:
Kohler labeling a twin 18 with a so called 'quiet operation' as a 16QS and not indicating that it actually is an 18 is strange, particularly when they also show a 16QS as a single cylinder engine, not the first odd thing that Kohler has done however!
Most engines are factory setup to run at high idle around 3,200 to 3,400 RPM although the specs may show 3,600 RPM. Engine RPM can be adjusted to 3,600 RPM on all engines and I have readjusted many to 3,600 RPM high idle. This increases the blade tip speed on the mower deck somewhat. The pump manufacturers specify a maximum RPM of 3,600 and a risk of cavitation if 3,600 is exceeded. Cavitation is when air bubbles are created in the pump that is turning too fast. Air caused by cavitation will reduce performance of the hydraulic system.
Generally, Case and Ingersoll mower deck blade tip speed is low relative to current industry standards. Current standards are approximately 18,000 FPM where the Case Ingersoll decks are approximately 12,000 to 13,000 FPM, feet per minute.
Case Ingersoll mower decks J44, J46 thru N44 and N46 deck blade tip speed can be increased by replacing the deck drive pulley (the upper pulley on the center spindle) with one for a J40-N40 pulley. The J46 thru N46 decks will gain the most increase in blade tip speed, J44 thru N44, not so much.
The same thought holds with Ingersoll RM44 and RM48 decks as a center spindle shaft from an RM40 deck can be installed in RM44 and RM48 decks to increase blade tip speed.
In both situations, there is no need to change V belt size as the tensioner is able to adjust.
So, bottom line, engine RPM up to 3,600 and deck drive pulley changes will increase the blade tip speeds by about 2,500 FPM! Having done this to many machines including my own, the performance is greatly improved!:cool:
 
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