I was lookin up stuff on the surplus center, like selector valves, for adding remotes on my 446, And I checked out the many hyd pumps they have,..and using there tech section for help.,,. Its easy to figure out what pumps they have for direct replacement, or in my case, that put out a little more juice. as low as $85 bucks New,.. up to $125 will get you about what ever you need, Am i dreaming or can you purchase a NEW pump for 1/2 of what used cost on ebay??? They typically run $225-$250. :headscratcher: dunno Eric
New Hyd pumps
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Geeze, whata tryin to do embarass me, Ive heard about that fancy postin links stuff,.. but dont have a clue.. any way, go to surplus center and search 9-7790-b, then click on go to pdf file, (after u look at pump) It in color maybe red. that should bring up most of the pumps in that range.. EricHydriv said:
Question for the tech savy (caseingy) guys, Is there any problems pumpin 12.5 gpm threw the system, besides standard specs, would it cause any problems? other than turning power red hyd lines a burnt orange color? :wink: Thank You Eric PS IAM ONE OF THOSE CRAZY GUYS... :wtf: :wtf: I run my air tools that say rated @90 PSI on 125 psi, ocasionally If I need more power,.Ill go 150psi plus,.. E J
OK... if you do not know how to post links in a thread, that's OK. You gave enough information for me to find the pump you mentioned. :thumbsup:Mrkubotakid said:
Just so that you and others reading this thread understand, Case used pumps from many different suppliers over the years such as Parker, Barnes, Cessna, Borg and others. You should also know that pump bodies are divided into sizes much like three point hitches are divided into categories. In the beginning, Colt and Case used the Type A pump size for the tractors but as space became more constricted in the area behind the engine due to changes in design, they were forced to use the smaller AA series pump.
The pump you referenced would work on an early Case or Colt tractor but would be physically too large to work on later models except for the 600 Series, when space was not at a premium.
Surplus Center is a good place to shop for hydraulic products but their name says it all. They are very much like Small Engine Warehouse in that they buy up over-stock from manufacturers for cheap money and then resell it piece by piece. This means that the pump or engine you see today for sale may not be available a week later because they are now sold out of that item. Whether they ever get another load of exact same item in stock again is highly unlikely. In other words, this site cannot recommend Surplus Center as being a constant source of the correct pump for a CCI tractor.
Your question has come up many times on many forums. Here are some of the issues.Mrkubotakid said:
- it takes more HP to spin a 12.5 GPM pump at 3600 RPM than it does to spin a OEM approved 9.5 GPM pump at the same speed. A real world example as to why going bigger is not better is this one. An owner went to a hydraulics place to purchase a new pump for his 444 Case. The store clerk handed him a pump and said "This will work just fine". He brought it home, installed it and then tried to rototill his garden. The second he dropped his tiller down into the soil, it stalled. In frustration he came to the forum I was on and told us about how his tiller did not work and he needed help to fix the problem. It took about 15 posts before we were finally told that "It couldn't be my pump because I just replaced it". BINGO. We asked him to go back to the pump supplier to get the specs on that pump. That's when we learned that he had a much larger pump.... somewhere a bit north of 12 GPM and his slightly tired Kohler 14 HP engine slowed down dramatically whenever the tiller was used. The drop in engine speed also dropped the pump output and the tiller wasn't getting what it needed to perform its job. When he installed the correct size pump, his problems with the tiler magically went away
The moral to this true story is this.
The engineers at Case knew what they were doing when they chose the size of pump for these machines. Most owners are not hydraulic engineers. Most owners don't have a clue about hydraulics and yet they think it's OK to make drastic changes to the system. There is a person on MTF who messes around with the hydraulic system on his 200 Series Case on a regular basis and creates all sorts of problems for himself. The system on these tractors consists of components that are compatible with one another. When you increase the GPM of a pump, then you cause the amount of heat generated to rise as a result of the higher flow and the friction that takes place. All that a larger pump will do is to increase your travel speed but that increased speed comes at a price. REDUCED TORQUE and a higher demand for engine HP.
If you are a hot rodder at heart, then you know the following to be true. You can put a much larger CFM carb on an engine but if you want that carb to really shine, you end up installing a camshaft with higher lift and longer duration. Then you end up putting heads on that engine with larger valves and perhaps higher compression. Then you send those heads out to be ported and polished. Then you realize that your exhaust system is too small to handle all that extra air that is being pumped so a nice set of high-flow headers combined with larger exhaust pipes, mufflers and tailpipes are needed. Then you need a magneto ignition to deliver a more precise and fatter spark. Bottom line.... the stock engine was perfect for the application the engineers designed it for. All of the aforementioned parts were in balance with one another. When you changed one item, you changed the balance. Hydraulic systems work the same way.
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Installing pumps flowrated beyond the capability of circuit components and conduits generate heat and wear the pump even faster. Adding higher flow rated pumps may be ok for the hydraulic engineer if he/she uses a flow divider to split up circuits, but why waste engine hp. and create hyd drag on the tractor power output. Higher pumps also circulate the oil through the reservoir and cooler more times which may be self defeating if the circuit conduits can't handle extra flow. Like good hot rodders we are, we are always looking for ways to push the envelope and increase tractor versatility. A pump has an efficiency rating. Look for a pump flow rated @ERPM as compatible to the original hydriv system but with maximum efficiency attainable. The money is better spent there than on a cheap, higher flow pump that will wear out prematurely anyway. In reality, the "power beyond" feature of valves is what gives you added hydr. features.
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If of any interest, would also mention that pump efficiency pass/fail specs depend on the pump design. (we use external gear, no piston or geroter pumps. Only the transaxle TRW motor uses an internal gear geroter design)
An external gear type, minimum and typical efficiency would be 80-85% gpm delivery at 2500 psi approx, compared to the theoretical and maybe the actual gpm delivery at 0 psi with an inlet head pressure ( flooded inlet at atmospheric psi 14.7#). The pump has a delivery drop off curve whereby at a threshold rpm, 0 psi, the gpm will drop off, meaning the capacity of the pump has been attained and will quickly drop from overspeeding by the engine or input shaft. When testing a pump on tractor, a flowmeter will measure efficiency of clean, unaerated, correct viscosity oil under this condition at governed WOT.
The search for a new replacement pump should be gpm rated nearly at or slightly below engine governed speed (typ. 3600 rpm) since CCI's are direct crank mount. Look for the pressure loaded efficiency rating at a mfr tested rpm and gpm delivery. If the pump is above 85%, you have a really good used, or typical new performing pump. If the pump is below 80%, then overheating of the oil will rapidly deteriorate the pump as the oil is only recirculating inside the pump itself (internal gear slippage). Its probably time to think about a new one because oil seals in the pump and related downstream components don't like hot oil above around 200F. Cast iron center section pump bodies offer the highest resistance to wear, aluminum is cheaper and will not tolerate contamination as well. Most everyone will be buying an aluminum pump as the lower gpm units are price rated. Cast iron is for industrial equip, typically.
If a hyd system is properly maintained, designed for optimized flow without causing backup restrictions(funneling), and has a relief valve set to factory spec. it will last many years. Maintenance, oil spec, overspeeding, contaminated hyd components, and wear are the enemies of our tractors. Which is true of any hyd sys. Albeit, most of us don't have flowmeters, a hyd shop would likely or an ag or ind. equipment dealer, and perhaps they'd check it on the tractor (cheaper maybe than bench test). I used to have a flowmeter and I miss it but had to turn it back in when I left a previous job.
A lot of blah blah blah, but I love hydraulics and what it can do for you.... I used to teach industrial back hyd. years ago.... Here's one for you to remember...You can't have a good sys unless you have 2 things: Flow AND pressure. Pressure alone will not give you system performance. So, what is PSO? (pressure squirting out).... Have fun! And thanks Hy for the :thumbsup: (I'd be happy to help anyone learn hydraulics, anytime...) :wink:
An external gear type, minimum and typical efficiency would be 80-85% gpm delivery at 2500 psi approx, compared to the theoretical and maybe the actual gpm delivery at 0 psi with an inlet head pressure ( flooded inlet at atmospheric psi 14.7#). The pump has a delivery drop off curve whereby at a threshold rpm, 0 psi, the gpm will drop off, meaning the capacity of the pump has been attained and will quickly drop from overspeeding by the engine or input shaft. When testing a pump on tractor, a flowmeter will measure efficiency of clean, unaerated, correct viscosity oil under this condition at governed WOT.
The search for a new replacement pump should be gpm rated nearly at or slightly below engine governed speed (typ. 3600 rpm) since CCI's are direct crank mount. Look for the pressure loaded efficiency rating at a mfr tested rpm and gpm delivery. If the pump is above 85%, you have a really good used, or typical new performing pump. If the pump is below 80%, then overheating of the oil will rapidly deteriorate the pump as the oil is only recirculating inside the pump itself (internal gear slippage). Its probably time to think about a new one because oil seals in the pump and related downstream components don't like hot oil above around 200F. Cast iron center section pump bodies offer the highest resistance to wear, aluminum is cheaper and will not tolerate contamination as well. Most everyone will be buying an aluminum pump as the lower gpm units are price rated. Cast iron is for industrial equip, typically.
If a hyd system is properly maintained, designed for optimized flow without causing backup restrictions(funneling), and has a relief valve set to factory spec. it will last many years. Maintenance, oil spec, overspeeding, contaminated hyd components, and wear are the enemies of our tractors. Which is true of any hyd sys. Albeit, most of us don't have flowmeters, a hyd shop would likely or an ag or ind. equipment dealer, and perhaps they'd check it on the tractor (cheaper maybe than bench test). I used to have a flowmeter and I miss it but had to turn it back in when I left a previous job.
A lot of blah blah blah, but I love hydraulics and what it can do for you.... I used to teach industrial back hyd. years ago.... Here's one for you to remember...You can't have a good sys unless you have 2 things: Flow AND pressure. Pressure alone will not give you system performance. So, what is PSO? (pressure squirting out).... Have fun! And thanks Hy for the :thumbsup: (I'd be happy to help anyone learn hydraulics, anytime...) :wink:
Thanks for the detailed replys, good points. Iam not convinced that lack of hp would be an issue. I have poped the bypass on a regular bases with both of my late model 400 series tractors. and thought it was way to easy to do, because the engine wasnt pulling down much, It felt like there was about 5 hp left over when tires quit turning. Ill admit the 12.5 -16 r4s loaded, and a 5ft land pride rake on the back is pretty demanding. I do have heat concerns, I made a joke about turning power red to a burnt orange color. :wink: But unless Iam using the pto on a very hot day, like 85 degrees plus, I dont think a 10% increase in flow is going to mess up my tractor. Or cause any premature falures. I have used a caterpillar hyd oil, (green color) that will reduce tempetures, 10-15 degrees. expensive but well worth it. The reason i want more flow is for increased ground speed, low range is too slow for many of my jobs, and 10% more ground speed would be nice, :trink: Eric
Thanks for the detailed replys, good points. Iam not convinced that lack of hp would be an issue. I have poped the bypass on a regular bases with both of my late model 400 series tractors. and thought it was way to easy to do, because the engine wasnt pulling down much, It felt like there was about 5 hp left over when tires quit turning. Ill admit the 12.5 -16 r4s loaded, and a 5ft land pride rake on the back is pretty demanding. I do have heat concerns, I made a joke about turning power red to a burnt orange color. :wink: But unless Iam using the pto on a very hot day, like 85 degrees plus, I dont think a 10% increase in flow is going to mess up my tractor. Or cause any premature falures. I have used a caterpillar hyd oil, (green color) that will reduce tempetures, 10-15 degrees. expensive but well worth it. The reason i want more flow is for increased ground speed, low range is too slow for many of my jobs, and 10% more ground speed would be nice, :trink: Eric
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I believe that Cat hydraulic oil is 10w which is too thin for this application. I also think that you are going to be surprised how poorly your tiller works spinning 10% faster. I've worked a lot with skid steer hyd attachments. In a lot of demonstrations there would more than one brand of skidsteer to try the attachments. The problem was that every brand has a different flow rate (we were mostly using the high flow machines). Cat may have 34gpm, ASV 36gpm, Bobcat 38gpm (I'm just using these #s for reference).They may all have 90 HP engines. These were high torque attachments and the company had many motor options. We fould that if we had a 36gpm motor the machine perfprmed best on a 36gpm skidsteer, second best when run on a 34gpm and worse when oversped at 38gpm. I've done the math on hyd HP over the years but something about seeing it in persons sticks with me.
Eric...... you are free to dance to your own drummer. No one on this site will deny you that right. All we can do is to try and answer your question based upon the years of experience we personally have. I don't like to center anyone out but as I mentioned previously, there is a glaring example of the kind of problems that can arise when you think that you are smarter than the guys who designed these tractors. That example is Jayvee43 on MTF who absolutely refused to listen to anyone, when it came to modifying the hydraulics on his 222 Case. That site has long, long threads that were started by him. Go look them up. Start from when he first began posting on the Case forum and move forward.
I have no idea how many hours he wasted or how much money he wasted..... doing it "his way"....... only to run into problem after problem. Even today, he still doesn't have it right. All of us who tried to help him (and there were many) have pretty much given up. Now.... we just sit back and wait for the next thread to surface so we can nuke a fresh batch of popcorn and snap open a cool one while the latest saga unfolds. Ya... I know that he will read the above but so what? I'm giving him full credit for being a glaring example of "what not to do." :lol:
Another person you might want to talk to is my buddy Grummy who truly is an amazing guy when it comes to modifying these tractors. His workmanship is beyond reproach but he too, will tell you about his mistake in putting a large pump in his experimental "Case 449" that he built. Someone will put the link to his website in this thread hopefully and perhaps Grummy will comment in this thread because he is a member here. Oil choice is really important for these tractors if you want them to work properly. Truthfully speaking, the systems are already quite inefficient, thanks to the gear pump and geroler motor combination. Choosing the wrong oil only compounds the inefficiency. Colt, Case and Ingersoll have unanimously endorsed 20W40 motor oil for these tractors. That has never wavered since 1962, a full 50 years ago. They are so convinced about that type of oil that they have it blended and packaged for them with the Ingersoll name on the container even though 20W40 is no longer a grade put out by most of the big names in the oil business. For this reason, we suggest 20W50, or 15W40 or even 30W as a close replacement with no discernible loss in performance.
No one is suggesting that you aren't a bright guy. History is filled with people who branched out on their own to experiment with their own ideas. There's nothing wrong with that but the science of hydraulics has been around for a long, long time and the physics of it are well known. Millions upon millions of dollars and man-hours have been devoted to research and development over the years and most certainly, advances have been made. But as much as I am for creativity, I just don't see any merit in trying something that has already been tried by many others in the past only to result in failure.
If you want to resolve your ground speed problem while mowing, then there are two well known options open to you.
1. Install the motor from a 200 Series into your 400 Series.
2. Install the later High Range gear into your trans-axle and then mow in High Range.
I have no idea how many hours he wasted or how much money he wasted..... doing it "his way"....... only to run into problem after problem. Even today, he still doesn't have it right. All of us who tried to help him (and there were many) have pretty much given up. Now.... we just sit back and wait for the next thread to surface so we can nuke a fresh batch of popcorn and snap open a cool one while the latest saga unfolds. Ya... I know that he will read the above but so what? I'm giving him full credit for being a glaring example of "what not to do." :lol:
Another person you might want to talk to is my buddy Grummy who truly is an amazing guy when it comes to modifying these tractors. His workmanship is beyond reproach but he too, will tell you about his mistake in putting a large pump in his experimental "Case 449" that he built. Someone will put the link to his website in this thread hopefully and perhaps Grummy will comment in this thread because he is a member here. Oil choice is really important for these tractors if you want them to work properly. Truthfully speaking, the systems are already quite inefficient, thanks to the gear pump and geroler motor combination. Choosing the wrong oil only compounds the inefficiency. Colt, Case and Ingersoll have unanimously endorsed 20W40 motor oil for these tractors. That has never wavered since 1962, a full 50 years ago. They are so convinced about that type of oil that they have it blended and packaged for them with the Ingersoll name on the container even though 20W40 is no longer a grade put out by most of the big names in the oil business. For this reason, we suggest 20W50, or 15W40 or even 30W as a close replacement with no discernible loss in performance.
No one is suggesting that you aren't a bright guy. History is filled with people who branched out on their own to experiment with their own ideas. There's nothing wrong with that but the science of hydraulics has been around for a long, long time and the physics of it are well known. Millions upon millions of dollars and man-hours have been devoted to research and development over the years and most certainly, advances have been made. But as much as I am for creativity, I just don't see any merit in trying something that has already been tried by many others in the past only to result in failure.
If you want to resolve your ground speed problem while mowing, then there are two well known options open to you.
1. Install the motor from a 200 Series into your 400 Series.
2. Install the later High Range gear into your trans-axle and then mow in High Range.
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