[chris1044]

I've been looking for a good work horse for around the house for a few months, I'm 99% set on a case...my question is this:

I've got a steep hill I need to mow, so obviously I need a hill-holding valve on the tractor I buy. However, my concern is the oil lubricaton for the engine. Is the 444 splash lubricated and the 446 pressure? My hill is pretty steep, and it's big....don't want to ruin the engine if I purchase a 444.


Thanks,
Chris

 

[Billygoat]

I looked in the tech section under owners manuals, and picked a 444 and a 446 manual at random. Both state maximum of 30 degrees going up or down a slope and 20 degrees driving across a slope. Looking at that one could ASSUME they would both be the same. Personally, I wouldn't want to drive ANY garden tractor on that amount of slope. Guess maybe I'm losing my nerve in my old age. Hopefully those more familiar with operating on slopes will give their experiences on this to help you make a decision. The only slopes here at Lower Slower Delaware are the beaches sloping into the water. :lol:

 

[Hydriv]

This whole "thing" about splash lube vs pressure-lubed engines has been wrung out many times on every forum out there. Engine manufacturers are not stupid. For people to think that manufacturers build engines that are designed to be operated only on flat ground is absurd. They know that engines will be subjected to angles and their design takes that into account. What's important here for YOU as an owner is to keep the oil level right at the mark on the dipstick at all times. If you don't, then you can starve a pressure-lubed engine just as easily as a splash-lubed one. Look at all the millions and millions of pressure lubed engines that are in use every day all over the world powering rotary mowers that are often on an angle while cutting grass or pumping liquids, generating electricity, running welders, plate compactors and the list goes on ad infinitum. Many of those applications will place the engine on a stiff angle.

My choice would be an Ingersoll 444 from 1986, 87 or 88. The latter two years will have the built-in holding valve for sure and if you check the document in the FAQ's about holding valves, then you will know whether any 1986 you happen to run across will have the holding valve or not just based on the serial number.

 

[chris1044]

Thanks for the quick responses. The hill that I cut is 15-18*, and I cut it driving up/down. The portion that I drive across at the top may have 10*...maybe. Knowing that the owners manual specs 30* max, I'm not concerned.

This topic has been rung out, yes. However, it's still legit - there are plenty of engines that fail from off-angle operation (argue if you must, but I'm an engineer for a reputable manufacture). Spending over a grand on something without knowing what I'm getting is ignorant, hence the question. I will agree though, we do account for it and if the oil level is full it shouldn't be a problem - so long as the angle doesn't exceed what it was designed for. For example, I've got an old simplicity that has a briggs in it - it doesn't like anything over 10* because of the shallow sump. Thanks for the thorough answers :thumbsup:


That said, the 444 I'm looking at is a 1980 model. The current owner has receipts for the engine rebuild that took place at a reputable shop over the winter, and it comes with a mower deck/blower. What's a fair price? Attachments are in good shape, as is the paint, and it comes with a cab for snow blowing. I'm not sure but I believe the hold valve has been upfitted - if not I'll be doing that ($200 tops with a fluid change, correct?).

And out of curiosity, would you take a 444 over a 446?? Just asking...I know bigger isn't always better, but I plan to do some snow blowing with it, where the HP would be beneficial.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Hydriv]

On this site, we don't "argue"..... we discuss. :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: And doing one's homework in advance is most certainly promoted here. :thumbsup:


Don't misunderstand me. The Onan powered tractors are terrific. However, old tractors have old engines that eventually need to be rebuilt. One of our members just did a very thorough rebuild of an Onan engine and he dropped close to 2 grand. And that was with him re and re'ing the engine along with all of the tinwork. Rebuilding a Kohler would be 1/2 to 1/3 that price. That's why I would choose the Kohler over the Onan. Power-wise, they are pretty close unless you run across a 446 that had a P engine with 20 HP put into it.

The 1980 will have the longer wheelbase so should it NOT come with a 60" deck and you decide you want to use one, the 60" deck will work. The term "rebuild" is highly subjective but if a Pro shop did the work, then the invoices should show that the engine was bored, the crank was ground, the valves were done, the camshaft was profiled, the governor gear was replaced, the block was decked and the head was milled.

I would peg the cab at $300.00 on average.

The snowcaster at $350.00

Add $180.00 if it really does have a holding valve.

The tractor with the deck ....... $800.00 . He will whine because he probably paid serious money to rebuild the motor but if you are not going to keep a tractor long-term.... then rebuilding or re-powering is a foolish thing to do. So...... I'd say that you would be doing OK for $1800.00 tops but $1500.00 would be sweeter. Has he named a figure yet?

 

[chris1044]

At the price of the Onan rebuild, I would go the route of a repower I think...that's a lot of coin for a rebuild on a small engine :wtf: Comes with the territory I suppose, though. Lower parts volume and they've got to pay off the tooling (or lots of labor for small batch production) some how.

The guy with the 444 says everything was done...reground crank, new piston/rings, cam checked, valves ground, etc. In a former life I was an auto tech/machinist, so when you say rebuilds are highly subjective I know exactly what you mean. I won't even touch this is he doesn't have receipts (as a side note, it's comical when you ask people that rebuild what the bearing clearance is and they look at you confused :lolno: )

School me on the mower decks...this comes with a 46", but I would LOVE to have a 60". I cut roughly 2 acres of grass, and it'd be the cats meow! What years will NOT accept it? My understanding with the 4xx series is that all attachments will work on all tractors, provided they've got a 3pt hitch in the rear if needed.

Also, is the snow blower hydro driven or belt off a mule hitch?

The guy wants 1600 for everything. The catch is he's never hooked up the blower, but "it spins real nice by hand." So, I'd like to hook it up before I take it home. He also has no clue on the hold valve...it's under the tractor in front of the axle, correct?

Again, mucho gracias for answering the noob questions!

 

[Hydriv]

Both the 200 and 400 Series tractors had 46" wheelbases until 1980 when the 400's went to 48". That co-incided with the introduction of the 60" deck. Up until then, the 48" deck (called a model 46 for some inexplicable reason) was the largest cutting width.

Snow blowers are belt driven and come in two widths. 38" and 48". The 38" is used on the 200 Series tractors but with "wings" added, it will work OK on the 400's.

In the early 90's, Ingersoll did have the 3100 and 4100 Series of GT's known as the AH or All Hydraulic models that did use a hydraulically driven snow blower and mower deck. Those items are not used on other model but I'm telling you about them because of the way your question was framed.

His asking price is not unreasonable. The big unknown is the engine. Funny isn't it....how people don't keep invoices for something as important as an engine rebuild? Perhaps he remembers the shop? Maybe you could ask the shop if they remember doing his engine and what they did to it? If the engine was totally done, then the package sounds like a damn good deal. Don't lose it unless you uncover something that really smells bad.

Installing the snow caster is simple. Remove the deck. Drive up to the snow caster and slide the mule bracket onto the mount. There is an arm that comes over the front axle and connects to the bell crank bracket that lifted the deck. That lift arm supports the chute crank. Connecting the drive belt is pretty straight forward but............if in doubt, consult the Operator's Manual section in the Tech Library here.


There are two ways to have the "holding valve" feature. There is a KIT consisting of a valve block, steel lines and fittings. This rectangular cast iron valve block is mounted on the two drive motor ports and has two steel lines that connect it to the travel valve ports. It's very evident of you have that valve. The second way is if someone took a used travel/lift valve from a post 1985 tractor and retrofitted it to this tractor. Since this guy doesn't seem to know what you are talking about, I don't think that happened or he would have remembered doing it.

 

[chris1044]

Well, if it sounds to good to be true, it is.

Where to start? Who rebuilds an engine and puts a dirty ass air filter back on? Who puts a hydraulic pump back on that leaks ("that must have just started").

Cab was off an Allis Chalmers, blower auger had more than a few good dents, and deck missed a strip of grass while cutting. Worth a grand..maybe, but I've got an old simplicity if I want to work on a tractor - I want something I can use with fluid changes and maybe some other minor maintenance.

So here's another question: this tractor jerked like an SOB when engaging forward and reverse....is this normal? I'm guessing not?

 

[Hydriv]

Sorry about what you found but that does happen, as you well know.


No point in me commenting on the issues.

However, I will answer your question by saying that what you encountered is not normal. It is the product of a poorly maintained tractor. There is too much free play in the travel linkage and the spool is being pushed around by the hydraulic oil. That's why it's jerky. It's an easy fix and not all that expensive.

I'm glad you walked away from it. Log on each morning and read the Classifieds forum. Lots of members have bought stuff that came to their attention in that forum. Just look at the Tractor Cupid thread.

 

[Snotrocket]

It probably just had some slop in the linkage. Also if you've never driven one they can be a little touchy until you get used to it.

 

[chris1044]

Sorry about what you found but that does happen, as you well know.

No point in me commenting on the issues.

However, I will answer your question by saying that what you encountered is not normal. It is the product of a poorly maintained tractor. There is too much free play in the travel linkage and the spool is being pushed around by the hydraulic oil. That's why it's jerky. It's an easy fix and not all that expensive.

I'm glad you walked away from it. Log on each morning and read the Classifieds forum. Lots of members have bought stuff that came to their attention in that forum. Just look at the Tractor Cupid thread.

Well, I bought a tractor earlier today...but it's green instead of orange. Long story short a friend of a friend had a deere 316 he wanted to get rid of...400 hours, 49" blower and 50" deck and I picked it up for 1500 including fuel to get it.

That said, I'm still going to be on the look out for a case...the classified section here is excellent (I've been a lurker for the last few months), and the info here is excellent as well. Thanks for the detailed responses, and even though I didn't end up with a case tractor, there is one in my future :thumbup:

 

[Hydriv]

Sounds like a good deal for the 316 package. Congratulations. Those are one of the best models produced by Deere. There's lots of time for you to look around for a hot deal on a Case tractor that meets your fancy. We are glad to have you here as a member. You might want to try GT Talk for a forum to help you with your Deere.

 

[InTroubleAlltheTime]

Chris: Welcome to the site, we're glad you joined! :usa: :usa: :usa: Hope that we can help you into the drivers seat of a CCI tractor. There is a lot of buying and selling action on the site.
:222: :446: Best Regards, Rich