Ive searched the files for schematics on the 646/648, for Ideas on how to add a seperate valve body to my 88 446, I need to add 2 outlets. If I add tcv for the pto and tap the lift circut for power to new valve will that bleed out the main oil stream? Oh, Iam not a fan of the selector valve. Thanks Eric
outlet options
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Sorry not more specific. I will be adding a valve of some kind for pto, preferbably below seat. my new valve body will be a miniture 9 gpm or less.(open center). I would like it to be mounted on front side of right fender, so its user friendly. I need to add 2 new 2 way cylinder circuts. I looked for 646/648 as well as 4016 ps hyd schmatics but didnt find any. I would like to be able to add ps later. are the 4000 series power steering tractors using a priority valve? are any of the little steering valves capable of power beyond? Iam flerting with the Idea of using a 11.5 gpm pump, going threw a adjustable flow control valve takin aprox 2 gallons off for the new circut. :crazy: I want to keep the new circut small/compact, 1/4 plumbing. also I do have 3 modular electric silinoid valves. And I have used needle valves in the past for smoother operation. so maybe mount them under the tractor, and put a series of switches on the fender.. :headscratcher: .Iee dunno. Iam lookin for Ideas on how to supply a new circut, using 1/4 plumbing. Thanks Eric
Post your requirements in detail and then members can help you with a system design based on same. If the details are clear and complete members can help you to define them. Until that is done its impossible to design a system that will work the way you want and nont waste a bunch of time and money and leave you frustrated and miffed about the result.
To begin with, you didn't look hard enough. :sidelaugh:
Go to the Library/Service Manuals/Hydraulics and start reading. There are manuals in there with coloured flow charts for all tractors.
What you want to do won't be cheap so lets get that out of the way right at the start.
The OEM pump is 9.5 GPM at 3600 RPM and O PSI. Jumping to 11.5 or 12 GPM is fine... and here's why.
You will be using a true PRIORITY VALVE to separate 2 GPM from the pump flow on a continuous basis. A PV that is adjustable from 1 to 4 GPM is preferable but if you know that the steering pump requires for smooth operation at all times, then a fixed PV is fine.
The pump will dump 100 percent of its output directly into the PV. The residual flow of 9.5 to 10 GPM should then go to the valve that services the back of the tractor (rear PTO) but this valve must flow at least 10 GPM and also have a built-in relief that can be adjusted to 2500 PSI if called upon to do so. From there, the flow should head straight to the NEW travel/lift valve from a 600 Series tractor so that you can take advantage of the Power Beyond port it has. At this point.... you have properly looked after the needs for hydraulic attachments that are plugged into the rear PTO and you have also looked after the needs of the travel motor and implement lift circuits.
The Power Beyond port is fully capable of feeding whatever valves you wish to have for operating small cylinders. However, those valves should have a relief built into them too because cylinders rarely need big pressure to angle a plow, as an example. Using 1/4 inch lines is one way of slowing down the speed of these cylinders because you still have nearly 10 gpm available to you. Installing a flow control valve just after the PB port is another option. You can use that to tune the cylinder speed to your liking and then fix it with the set screw.
As for the power steering pump, you will find a Danfoss catalogue in the hydraulics section and the 40 series is a good choice. If you manage to find one on e-Bay that has Power Beyond, then you could probably use the flow from it to supply those extra valves thus eliminating the need for changing the travel/lift valve. I would talk to an engineer at Danfoss about this prior to making a decision. I don't know how their power steering pumps react to back pressure or what the relief setting is. The cylinders would be governed by that setting.
As rockdog stated, careful advance planning is needed or you will find yourself in the same sort of jackpot that Jayvee43 is in.
Go to the Library/Service Manuals/Hydraulics and start reading. There are manuals in there with coloured flow charts for all tractors.
What you want to do won't be cheap so lets get that out of the way right at the start.
The OEM pump is 9.5 GPM at 3600 RPM and O PSI. Jumping to 11.5 or 12 GPM is fine... and here's why.
You will be using a true PRIORITY VALVE to separate 2 GPM from the pump flow on a continuous basis. A PV that is adjustable from 1 to 4 GPM is preferable but if you know that the steering pump requires for smooth operation at all times, then a fixed PV is fine.
The pump will dump 100 percent of its output directly into the PV. The residual flow of 9.5 to 10 GPM should then go to the valve that services the back of the tractor (rear PTO) but this valve must flow at least 10 GPM and also have a built-in relief that can be adjusted to 2500 PSI if called upon to do so. From there, the flow should head straight to the NEW travel/lift valve from a 600 Series tractor so that you can take advantage of the Power Beyond port it has. At this point.... you have properly looked after the needs for hydraulic attachments that are plugged into the rear PTO and you have also looked after the needs of the travel motor and implement lift circuits.
The Power Beyond port is fully capable of feeding whatever valves you wish to have for operating small cylinders. However, those valves should have a relief built into them too because cylinders rarely need big pressure to angle a plow, as an example. Using 1/4 inch lines is one way of slowing down the speed of these cylinders because you still have nearly 10 gpm available to you. Installing a flow control valve just after the PB port is another option. You can use that to tune the cylinder speed to your liking and then fix it with the set screw.
As for the power steering pump, you will find a Danfoss catalogue in the hydraulics section and the 40 series is a good choice. If you manage to find one on e-Bay that has Power Beyond, then you could probably use the flow from it to supply those extra valves thus eliminating the need for changing the travel/lift valve. I would talk to an engineer at Danfoss about this prior to making a decision. I don't know how their power steering pumps react to back pressure or what the relief setting is. The cylinders would be governed by that setting.
As rockdog stated, careful advance planning is needed or you will find yourself in the same sort of jackpot that Jayvee43 is in.
Hidriv,.. I posted all forseeable options, wants & needs, because, kinda like a puzzle, once the pieces are in, adding another function may not work. If iam reading you rite I cant tap into the pto tcv. And must wait until after the orignal tcv circut to supply my spool valve. And the orignal tcv needs to be replaced with a 600 series tcv so I have pb. correct? If I remember correctly the 600 series tractors dont have the built in holding valve, so Ill loose that feature?..IF so,. Can I bore and thread my tcv for a pb port? I would imagine finding a tcv with a built in holding valve AND a pb port would cost me (serious) cash? (IF) I was lucky enough to find one? . Please conferm. Maybe I should take the power steering option out of the loop, but keep my adjustable priority valve, add the relief valve. change up to a 11.5- 12.0 gpm pump, and have the option to dial in what works for me. maybe crank up the ground speed, or maybe not, maybe crank up the pto, or maybe not,. The idea of adjustable flow on both the primary and secondary intrest me. please conferm tcv options Thanks Eric
Case designed the hydraulic system so that it dealt with PRIORITIES in the proper order.Mrkubotakid said:
The rear PTO valve is there to supply fluid power to motor driven attachments that often require high pressure as well as maximum flow. That is why the pump feeds it first and this should not be interfered with or you will compromise the ability of everything you plug into that PTO...performance-wise. The next important task is to propel the tractor and once again, line pressures can rise significantly at full throttle while using a utility blade to push dirt around. Once again, the drive motor needs full flow to achieve max speed and it needs high pressure to achieve max wheel torque. Once you are past these two valves, then low flow, low pressure applications such as small cylinders can be accommodated. A cheaper and simpler way to handle those apps is to use a selector valve in conjunction with the lift spool beside the travel spool but you don't want that. The lift circuit is already low flow, works with 1/4" lines and has a built-in relief set at 575 PSI. The cost of a 600 valve with PB would be determined by the two people bidding on it.
If you take Power Steering out of the equation, then to me, the adjustable PV is pointless. Yes, I know... you are hell-bent on trying to increase the ground speed. Just go and get the higher tooth count Hi Range gear and solve that issue that way. Leave the hydraulics out of that.
I don't speak for Rockdog but I'm certain that he too is referring you to MTF and all the nonsensical threads created by Jayvee43. Since he is still a member there, I can understand his reluctance to name names. Thankfully, I am banned from that site so I really don't give a damn one way or the other on that issue. All I will say ....once again..... is..... go and read Jayvee's threads and make up your own mind.
You are correct about having to abandon your built-in holding valve if you manage to purchase a travel/lift valve from a 600 Series. However, your valve has the same kind of value as a Holding Valve Kit does, so that feature can be regained. As for adding PB to your OEM valve, you would have to talk to an experienced hydraulics shop to find out whether that can be done and how much it would cost. There's more to it than just drilling a hole and tapping it.
Hydriv, Ill try not to bore you with this project again. I do want you to know why the selector valve isnt a good option for me, 1- Artheritis, Its not fun for me to reach the floor. 2- selector valves dont like switching under pressure. 3- I need two extra circuts and the selector option only gives me one. As far as the tcv/pb option,,It looks very expensive to me, Ive seen the holding valves alone go north of $200.00, Ive never seen a 600 series tractor parted out, Iam guessing when you do the valve will cost $300.00 plus. dunno, never seen one sell. but just for starters $500.00 for (used) parts, :wtf: You said, Iam HELL bent on going faster and thats why I want the big pump flow....and I should just go with the 200 series rear parts? But that wont work well for me because I already need a lower gear for some of the Overloades I put on these tractors, besides not workin well for rototilling. Iam really not trying to (soup) up my tractor. I just want to add a few updates. That are looooong over due. I dont know alot about John Deeres history but wasnt it about (40 years) ago that they started putting remote outlets on there tractors? the 140? Iam not complaining, I Love a challenge, and If I didnt LOVE my case tractors I wouldent be here spending time trying to make them more productive , and FUN :thumbsup: Dont be madd at me because Iam not a purist :lolno: Pease brother
It's not about boring me nor is it about purism. If you wish to modify a red tractor, then go ahead. There are still plenty of red tractors around. I agree with your assessment regarding the costing of the parts. Valves for hydraulics are not inexpensive. Therefore, careful planning is needed and that is what rockdog and me have been expressing. In addition, there is precious little room on these tractors to mount extra valves and to run hoses or lines in a way that they won't be problematic in one fashion or the other.
Let me break this down for you.
GOING FASTER TO CUT GRASS.
Click on this link .http://www.manuals.casecoltingersoll.co ... marked.pdf
Then scroll down to a bit better than halfway through the book and you will find an exploded diagram of the trans-axle. Look at iTEM 25 and then refer to the next page for the parts index. You will see that Ingersoll offered two different tooth counts for the high range gear. To purchase that gear from Ingersoll would cost you more than $300.00. However, 4000 series tractors are being parted out these days and I have seen the complete trans-axle sell for less than $100.00. Swapping out the trans-axle is a one day task, at best. I suggest that you contract our keystone member Bob MacGregor about this gear because he has first-hand knowledge about the benefits. The Low Range gear remains the same. Therefore, nothing will change when it comes to the so-called "overloads" you say that you inflict on your tractor.
SIMPLE FACT
The Case Hy-driv system is what it is. You can stick a big block rat motor under the hood and feed it NOX all day long but you won't see more than 14 HP being delivered to the rear wheels. I can't make it any clearer than that. Every component was selected to work in harmony as a unit. When you make changes that go outside the parameters of the original system design, then you will find yourself in trouble of one kind or another. Yes. there are some mods that can be done. Few of them represent "low cost". You are playing with a tractor that has a current replacement cost that is close to ten grand. If you want low costs, then choose a tractor that had a low price tag when it was new. If you want to play with a Rolls-Royce, then expect to pay Rolls-Royce prices.
Hydraulics is a science about pressure and flow. It has rules. That's why there are people with the title "Hydraulic Engineer". These people know the rules and respect the rules. I am not an engineer but I do know about several of the rules. I also know about what others have tried with these tractors and failed at. I'm trying to pass some of that on to you in this thread and so is Rockdog.
So let's back up here and look at this again.
EXTRA CIRCUITS
In order to not re-invent the wheel here, how about this? As I understand it, you essentially want the ability to control THREE different low pressure circuits that would operate small cylinders. You could do that by installing a small electrically operated valve bank with three spools. You would disconnect the mid-lift cylinder from the travel/lift spool. The lift spool would be disconnected mechanically from the lift lever beside the steering wheel. Remove the lift lever from the tractor. You would then lock the lift spool in the "full lift" position so that it constantly delivers flow out one port. That port would be connected to the IN port of the valve bank. The OUT port of the valve bank would then return to the other work port on the lift valve.
If you do that, you then have a three bank valve that can deliver low flow oil to a max of 575 PSI unless you alter the relief setting in the lift valve one way or the other. A gauge plus trial and error would allow you to fine tune the best setting. Any of the spools on the valve bank can be fitted with "float" to restore that feature to the mid-lift cylinder. Weather resistant bat handle switches could be mounted in a convenient spot to control the valve bank and it could be mounted under the tractor to keep all the lines out of sight.
If you want a rear PTO, then that would be plumbed into the system as I described earlier. It would not be connected to this valve bank circuit in any way. There would be no need to get into Power Beyond or Flow Control Valves. If you still desire Power Steering, then stick with method selected by the engineers. Use a priority valve and a slightly larger pump to provide the flow needed for the PS without compromising the rest of the system. If you do it this way, you will not throw the system out of balance. You will not create extra heat. You will keep your costs reasonably low.
Yes.... John Deere was putting remotes on their tractors many years ago but there isn't a Deere GT made that can power hydraulic motors. Yes, they can make small cylinders go in and out but that's it. I am not dissing Deere. I am simply pointing out the major difference in the two systems.
If you are having problems with rototilling, then you need to do some investigation into why. What I find curious about new owners of these tractors is this. They buy a well-used Case or Ingersoll tractor for ten cents on the dollar and expect it to function like a new one. Do these people not understand the concept known as "wear and tear"? Every part on their tractor has undergone wear and tear. It is a credit to the overall strength of the design that these tractors are worth repairing. The major parts are nearly bullet proof. There are very few problems with the frames, front axles or trans-axles. The drive motors have incredible life and the travel/lift valves rarely need attention. Coolers are excellent and so are the reservoirs. Pumps are a different story. They definitely wear and over time, they stop delivering their rated pressure and flow. Fortunately, they are relatively inexpensive to buy but some owners are aghast at having to fork out $250.00 for a replacement. Really? Try buying a replacement hydro pump for a Wheelhorse or a Deere. You won't touch one for less than triple that figure.
Your turn.
Let me break this down for you.
GOING FASTER TO CUT GRASS.
Click on this link .http://www.manuals.casecoltingersoll.co ... marked.pdf
Then scroll down to a bit better than halfway through the book and you will find an exploded diagram of the trans-axle. Look at iTEM 25 and then refer to the next page for the parts index. You will see that Ingersoll offered two different tooth counts for the high range gear. To purchase that gear from Ingersoll would cost you more than $300.00. However, 4000 series tractors are being parted out these days and I have seen the complete trans-axle sell for less than $100.00. Swapping out the trans-axle is a one day task, at best. I suggest that you contract our keystone member Bob MacGregor about this gear because he has first-hand knowledge about the benefits. The Low Range gear remains the same. Therefore, nothing will change when it comes to the so-called "overloads" you say that you inflict on your tractor.
SIMPLE FACT
The Case Hy-driv system is what it is. You can stick a big block rat motor under the hood and feed it NOX all day long but you won't see more than 14 HP being delivered to the rear wheels. I can't make it any clearer than that. Every component was selected to work in harmony as a unit. When you make changes that go outside the parameters of the original system design, then you will find yourself in trouble of one kind or another. Yes. there are some mods that can be done. Few of them represent "low cost". You are playing with a tractor that has a current replacement cost that is close to ten grand. If you want low costs, then choose a tractor that had a low price tag when it was new. If you want to play with a Rolls-Royce, then expect to pay Rolls-Royce prices.
Hydraulics is a science about pressure and flow. It has rules. That's why there are people with the title "Hydraulic Engineer". These people know the rules and respect the rules. I am not an engineer but I do know about several of the rules. I also know about what others have tried with these tractors and failed at. I'm trying to pass some of that on to you in this thread and so is Rockdog.
So let's back up here and look at this again.
EXTRA CIRCUITS
In order to not re-invent the wheel here, how about this? As I understand it, you essentially want the ability to control THREE different low pressure circuits that would operate small cylinders. You could do that by installing a small electrically operated valve bank with three spools. You would disconnect the mid-lift cylinder from the travel/lift spool. The lift spool would be disconnected mechanically from the lift lever beside the steering wheel. Remove the lift lever from the tractor. You would then lock the lift spool in the "full lift" position so that it constantly delivers flow out one port. That port would be connected to the IN port of the valve bank. The OUT port of the valve bank would then return to the other work port on the lift valve.
If you do that, you then have a three bank valve that can deliver low flow oil to a max of 575 PSI unless you alter the relief setting in the lift valve one way or the other. A gauge plus trial and error would allow you to fine tune the best setting. Any of the spools on the valve bank can be fitted with "float" to restore that feature to the mid-lift cylinder. Weather resistant bat handle switches could be mounted in a convenient spot to control the valve bank and it could be mounted under the tractor to keep all the lines out of sight.
If you want a rear PTO, then that would be plumbed into the system as I described earlier. It would not be connected to this valve bank circuit in any way. There would be no need to get into Power Beyond or Flow Control Valves. If you still desire Power Steering, then stick with method selected by the engineers. Use a priority valve and a slightly larger pump to provide the flow needed for the PS without compromising the rest of the system. If you do it this way, you will not throw the system out of balance. You will not create extra heat. You will keep your costs reasonably low.
Yes.... John Deere was putting remotes on their tractors many years ago but there isn't a Deere GT made that can power hydraulic motors. Yes, they can make small cylinders go in and out but that's it. I am not dissing Deere. I am simply pointing out the major difference in the two systems.
If you are having problems with rototilling, then you need to do some investigation into why. What I find curious about new owners of these tractors is this. They buy a well-used Case or Ingersoll tractor for ten cents on the dollar and expect it to function like a new one. Do these people not understand the concept known as "wear and tear"? Every part on their tractor has undergone wear and tear. It is a credit to the overall strength of the design that these tractors are worth repairing. The major parts are nearly bullet proof. There are very few problems with the frames, front axles or trans-axles. The drive motors have incredible life and the travel/lift valves rarely need attention. Coolers are excellent and so are the reservoirs. Pumps are a different story. They definitely wear and over time, they stop delivering their rated pressure and flow. Fortunately, they are relatively inexpensive to buy but some owners are aghast at having to fork out $250.00 for a replacement. Really? Try buying a replacement hydro pump for a Wheelhorse or a Deere. You won't touch one for less than triple that figure.
Your turn.
Tom, You keep lecturing me, That I DONT get it, IT is what it is, And If I go mesin with this fine tractor Iam gona regret it. Cuz many have tried and all have FAILED, And with a smile :smile: I keep sayin, Iam not buyin it. On another note. The silinoid valve Idea I pitched the other day has suffered a hit. I tore down the modular units yesterday, I cleaned them up, check there function, and they seam to work good...Except,.. they are (closed circut).. :thumbdown: :facepalm: .. Well after crying half the nite 
. I woke up this morning and started drawing lines on paper with my crayons :headscratcher: And started connecting the dots.. And came up with another crazy Idea to pitch at ya. If I take this bank of 3 (closed center) silinoid valves, Which are a 3 position, double silinoid, spring center setup. Wired to 3 , 2 position on-off switches, So Iam only energizing 1 side of the valve. and cylinder only goes 1 way. Then I plumb my lift circut valve to the feed ports... Iam thinkin I would have 3 seperate double acting circuts controled by 1 manual valve. :thumbsup: . In order for this to work. The spools rated @ 3000 psi would need to except a reverse flow threw the block, The block dose NOT have a pressure relief. and is by directional by nature. Yes,.No,. Crazy :crazy: . I dunno,..But IF this would work and I could opperate three circuts from my lift circut.. with the feather feature of a manual valve.. :trink: :trink: :trink: Dont tell me Ill also have the float option too!!!...ON ALL THREE??? OK probably just another :crazy: Idea. But Hey, give me a little credit.. At least it sounded GOOD :drinkbuddies: Eric
. I woke up this morning and started drawing lines on paper with my crayons :headscratcher: And started connecting the dots.. And came up with another crazy Idea to pitch at ya. If I take this bank of 3 (closed center) silinoid valves, Which are a 3 position, double silinoid, spring center setup. Wired to 3 , 2 position on-off switches, So Iam only energizing 1 side of the valve. and cylinder only goes 1 way. Then I plumb my lift circut valve to the feed ports... Iam thinkin I would have 3 seperate double acting circuts controled by 1 manual valve. :thumbsup: . In order for this to work. The spools rated @ 3000 psi would need to except a reverse flow threw the block, The block dose NOT have a pressure relief. and is by directional by nature. Yes,.No,. Crazy :crazy: . I dunno,..But IF this would work and I could opperate three circuts from my lift circut.. with the feather feature of a manual valve.. :trink: :trink: :trink: Dont tell me Ill also have the float option too!!!...ON ALL THREE??? OK probably just another :crazy: Idea. But Hey, give me a little credit.. At least it sounded GOOD :drinkbuddies: EricMKD,Mrkubotakid said:Tom, You keep lecturing me, That I DONT get it, IT is what it is, And If I go mesin with this fine tractor Iam gona regret it. Cuz many have tried and all have FAILED, And with a smile :smile: I keep sayin, Iam not buyin it. On another note. The silinoid valve Idea I pitched the other day has suffered a hit. I tore down the modular units yesterday, I cleaned them up, check there function, and they seam to work good...Except,.. they are (closed circut).. :thumbdown: :facepalm: .. Well after crying half the nite
This is where the so-called lecturing comes to a screeching halt. This where I say... we must agree to disagree .... and leave it at that. I have given you my best counsel. It is not up to me to tell you how to do whatever it is you are trying to accomplish. Your ideas are just different than mine are. There is nothing wrong with that. By all means, continue on with your plans. No hard feelings. :thumbsup:
Now that makes me sad,.REALLY, whos gonna debate with me on hydraulics. Iam trying to turn a lemon into lemonade,.. and you dont wanna play?. No Hard feelings either,But,IF the closed center auxelilery valve Idea works? Can we still be drinkin buddies? EricHydriv said:MKD,Mrkubotakid said:Tom, You keep lecturing me, That I DONT get it, IT is what it is, And If I go mesin with this fine tractor Iam gona regret it. Cuz many have tried and all have FAILED, And with a smile :smile: I keep sayin, Iam not buyin it. On another note. The silinoid valve Idea I pitched the other day has suffered a hit. I tore down the modular units yesterday, I cleaned them up, check there function, and they seam to work good...Except,.. they are (closed circut).. :thumbdown: :facepalm: .. Well after crying half the nite
This is where the so-called lecturing comes to a screeching halt. This where I say... we must agree to disagree .... and leave it at that. I have given you my best counsel. It is not up to me to tell you how to do whatever it is you are trying to accomplish. Your ideas are just different than mine are. There is nothing wrong with that. By all means, continue on with your plans. No hard feelings. :thumbsup:
Joined
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3,703 Posts
It cost you but you get model program for PC so play with hydraulic's. And receive free e-mail from Brendan as I have for 3 years weekly it more about heavy equipment because that were money at on heavy equipment Hydraulic system Joy stick system is small hydraulic's.
Clicking links in this link move around his site.
http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/insider
Clicking links in this link move around his site.
http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/insider
Joined
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1,211 Posts
Now that is a good link!!
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