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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings to all. I have been working on my buddies late 60 model Case 190. I'm glad I found this site...my problem is this...I'm losing power at rear wheels. When I first got it running it would work fine until the hydraulics came up to operating temp and then lose power in forward..reverse "seemed" to be ok. I took the control valve apart and it was in relatively good shape. After cleaning it up and reassembling it I tried it out again. It worked fine for a couple of hours and now I'm losing power both forward and reverse..one thing I did notice was that the hydraulic brake on the drive motor was missing..I'm a mechanic by trade but I'm hoping maybe one of ya'll can tell me what the problem may be..thanks
 

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When new members arrive, we do everything possible to direct them to the FAQ's section first. There's a reason why we do this. The problem you describe is indicative of having the WRONG oil in the hydraulic system. There are several documents in the FAQ's that explain what oil you should be using and HOW to change out the oil properly. Oil in these tractors is similar to the driveshaft in a car. Oil is what delivers the power between the front of the tractor and the back of the tractor.

Start by reading those documents and dealing with the oil issue. As a mechanic, you will know that diagnosis is a step by step process and the oil is the first step. Until we know to a certainty that you have the correct oil in the system and that you have followed ALL the steps in changing it out, then anything we advise might be wrong. Come back to this thread once you have taken care of those things and tell us if there is any change in how the tractor performs. Then, we can advise you what to do next. OK? :thumbsup:

Here are links to the two important documents you need to read so that you better understand the tractor you are working on.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=617

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=618
 

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:+1:

I have a 66 190, and have experienced problems similar to you. Oil is definitely a goot start. My tractor had similar problems, not as bad. Had the correct oil, but was likely in the system 20+ years. Put in some new 20w50 and HOLY COW that thing had power! Not what it would from the factory, but better. Keep us posted.

Rob
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
O.K....I flushed the system and replaced the hydraulic
fluid w/ 15/40......same problem....good pull for about 10




mins. or so and then it falls off....can't be the pump or at least I wouldn't think..anyways any help would be GREATLY appreciated







...
 

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http://www.motionindustries.com/motion3 ... Search.jsp

add 101-1072-009 in search at link hit GO and drive motor come up for 190 $489.00 at motion industries.

As you mechanic I don't know if have access to small hydraulic flow meter they handy but not absolutely necessarily when pump real bad there ways check flow lose as we know you have lose.

You plug off lines going to travel motor one with plug other with Gauge hyd. type 3000 psi range Gauge and plugging can be at ports coming out valve.

Its time to go above rec. weight oil in your hydraulic drain about half that 15w 40 out put in 85w 90 weight oil in run recheck all 85w 90 be okay this save 800.00 dollars for pump drive motor.
 

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xpertwrench said:
O.K....I flushed the system and replaced the hydraulic
fluid w/ 15/40......same problem....good pull for about 10 mins. or so and then it falls off....can't be the pump or at least I wouldn't think..anyways any help would be GREATLY appreciated
...
OK..... I have to ask.....

I gave the link to a FAQ that explains how to change the hydraulic oil in the 100 Series tractors. Did you read that document? Did you remove the suction screen and clean it thoroughly before installing 10 new quarts of motor oil? Failure to clean that screen could mean that the pump is being starved for oil. This is an important diagnostic procedure.

As Gator pointed out, you need a glycerin filled pressure gauge that reads to 3000 PSI. That gauge needs to be plugged into one of the ports on the travel valve while the other port is plugged. Remove the steel lines that connect the drive motor to the travel valve and then hook up the gauge. With the engine running for at least ten minutes to allow the oil to reach operating temperature, advance the throttle control to wide open. While watching the gauge, push the travel lever into forward slowly until it reaches the end of its movement. Note the oil pressure. Then move the lever into full reverse and note the oil pressure.

You should see 1650 PSI on the gauge in both tests. Hopefully, you hear the squeal of the relief port opening up in the travel valve when you reach the max pump pressure. Low pump pressure indicates a badly worn pump that will allow hot oil to bypass back to the inlet side of the pump. Pressure falls off and oil volume is also reduced. It's oil volume that creates ground speed.

It may also be (as gator pointed out), a badly worn drive motor. Rebuilding them is not a good idea because of the high shop labour cost and the parts. A new motor is the way to go. Gator has given you the correct stock number and the best company we know of to buy one from.

If the pump turns out to be bad, then Grainger.com will sell you a 4F667 for around the $200.00 mark.

Let us know how you make out.
 

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I had a similar issue when I bought this 195, but I had an easy way of testing the system being as I had the rear pto.



I dead headed the pump - engaged the pto with no bypass hose and it stalled the engine like right now, so that told me the pump was good and the hydraulic motor was bad - of course I didn't know what I was doing back then... hell I still don't. :mrgreen:

But as suggested you'll have to use the more scientific approach with a gauge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
O.K....Here's the deal..as I said earlier I have replaced the oil and thoroughly cleaned the screen. Worked MUCH better for about 10 mins. or so and then power to wheels dropped by at least 70%. I was just hoping that someone would be able to point me in the right direction. I am pretty versed in hydraulics as I work for a small equipment company servicing rental equipment. My next question would be whether it would help to add about a half gallon or so of "heavy" gear oil to the system? My next course of action is to rebuild the pump and drive motor. Thanks for all of ya'lls help.
 

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OK.... here's the deal at our end.

We are pointing you in the right directions but like any proper diagnostic procedure, there are many steps that must be taken to isolate the TRUE problem instead of the guessed-at suspected problem. Now, I could be just like some garage mechanics at this point and tell you to install a brand new pump and drive motor. I'm pretty sure that would clear up the problem immediately.......but at what cost? The proper way is to isolate items and check the performance. Perhaps the pump is OK. Perhaps the problem lies with the relief valve. Perhaps the problem is solely the drive motor. On this site, we don't play silly, expensive guessing games at your expense. Instead, we try to guide you through the diagnostic process..... which is far less expensive.

Personally, I don't go along with putting gear oil in the system because it really does not cure the problem. It's similar to putting a bandaid on an infected wound. Yes, the wound is now out of site ...................until your finger turns black and falls off.

As for rebuilding these pumps and motors, you are welcome to take a shot at it. In the opinion of many, many people....it just isn't worth it. Working on the geroler style of drive motors calls for skills and machinery that are beyond most individuals that are not already involved in hydraulic equipment repair. Of course, you have nothing to lose by trying. Perhaps there is nothing all that wrong with the motor. Perhaps the pump is OK. Until you come to the realization that you need to follow our advice and conduct the tests, you are flying blind.

As a mechanic, you should be well-versed in the merits of taking a compression test (wet and dry) and conducting a leak-down test in order to assess the condition of the valves and rings in an engine. Hydraulics is no different. You came here for help because you don't know your way around these tractors. We can't push you into accepting our advice. That's in your hands. All I can tell you is that the "experience pool" on this forum is very deep.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I fully and very well understand what your saying and your help is greatly appreciated. I am aware of proper diagnostic procedures to isolate the problem that your dealing with. And again any help that comes my way as well as advice will be considered. I am not by far the best mechanic although I started turning wrenches at 17 in the Army as a diesel mech. that was 28 years ago. My only problem w/ this Case tractor is I'm unfamiliar w/ this drive system as it is on this tractor. I am familiar w/ gerator drives and pumps. And if you have access to the parts they are not that difficult to rebuild. What I do need is the "specs" for both the pump and drive motor. The "allowable" tolerances and clearances. I have been thru 'ALL" of your tech manuals and have found part explosions and parts list but no specs. The pump is pretty basic on allowables, but the gerator maintains a specific set of tolerances by type and manufacturing. Do any of you know where I can get this info? I know I may sound cranky but I have been working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week now for the past 6 weeks. I am DEAD in the water. But I truly value your help and input. Thanks again.
 

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The only place where you might get the motor specs is from the manufacturer. I have never come across that information. If you consult the 190 Parts Manual, there are some parts listed for the motor. The question then becomes whether they are available or not. At this point, I think your next move should be contact Motion Industries to see if they can help you with the specs you seek and tell you what parts are still available.

As for the pump, Case used many brands over the years and who knows if the OEM pump is still in the tractor. As I said previously, you can go to Grainger.com and punch 4F667 into their search box. That is the pump we recommend as being within the specs of the OEM units. Once again, parts might be an issue for an OEM pump that is now 46 years old. You won't really know what you are faced with until you dismantle both units. I admire your tenacity to try the rebuild route and I wish you the best of luck. Keep us informed of your progress and results.
 

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Info for parts and service of 190's:

http://www.manuals.casecoltingersoll.co ... marked.pdf

http://www.manuals.casecoltingersoll.co ... marked.pdf

Above are links to the parts and service manuals for the Case 190. The first is parts, pg 44 will show the motor and part numbers for each piece. IF you can find the parts, send me a PM with what you find out, I haven't been able to find hyd. motor parts for my 190, unless I want to just buy a new Hyd. motor.

The second link shows the Hyd. motor WITH CLEARANCE SPECS and how to check. I've checked mine, and betwen the inner and outer of the stator and rotor it measures .006" and my tractor still runs OK, but that's with 20w50.

In the near future I plan on attacking my drive motor, as it won't hold 1000psi at full throttle. Might try tightening up the tolerences in the end plates of the rotor/stator assembly as they are worn.

At any rate, you REALLY need to do a pressure test, as suggested, to find out where your problem lies.

Please read through the below link, there is ALOT of info here pretaining to hydraulic drive testing. This link has EVERYTHING to do with the problem you are experiencing.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4179&hilit=hydraulics

Keep in touch

Rob
 
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