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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'll try to keep this brief and to the point. I've studied the pto clutch adjustment procedure carefully, but what I'm seeing doesn't make sense:

My PTO clutch worked fine. But I've had the deck off for about the last month, and during that time I bought a new hydraulic cooling fan blade. Somewhere I had picked up a tip to keep your PTO engaged if you're not using it, to save the bearings. So I've had it engaged for about a month... Tonight I replaced the fanblade and put my deck back on.

It was a pain swapping out the fanblade with the oil cooler in place but there was just enough room. When I got it all back together it doesn't even begin to turn the blades. The PTO clutch seems to have tons of play, and engaging it just barely snugs the pulley up to the friction plate. I did go back and ensure that I have the two cam halves right-side up.

I did note that the convex shaped springs (Item #13 in the PTO clutch manual) seem to be stuck in position. The word spring makes me think of some kind of flexing under tension. These don't move or flex at all, they seem locked in position on the collar that they're on.

Could it be that by leaving my PTO engaged for so long that I've flattened out these two springs?

Tomorrow I'll disassemble again and get those springs off that collar, see if I can loosen things up.

But I thought I'd check with the experts first.

Thanks in advance,

Bob
 

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I don't recall anyone ever saying that their Belleville washers flattened out and refused to return to the cup shape. However.... they are "springs" and they will lose tension over time. I think that you will have to make a judgment call about those springs after you dismantle the clutch for inspection.
 

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Hi bobneumann and group,
Do you have a Shim adjust or an EZ adjust clutch? Similar but adjusted differently.
When I operated a 448 commercially I kept one Belleville washer to use as refference to check the ones in use on my clutch, I also kept a pair in my parts stash as spares. They do in time loose some of their original shape which affects the clutch operation.
You need to download and read the appropiate clutch service manual here on this site. Clutches are not adjusted while engaged and you lost whatever adjustment you had when you replaced the fan. You really need to move the oil cooler to the side when adjusting the clutch. If you have an Onan with an EZ Adjust clutch you need a 1 3/4" open end wrench, 3/4" socket, a torque wrench and some means of preventing the flywheel from turning, I use an adjustable pin spanner for this with the pins stuck into the holes in the flywheel screen and resting on the tractor frame.
Some folks recommend that the clutch be kept engaged all the time when the mower deck is not installed, but I'm not one of them. Generally the major use of these machines is for mowing and limited use when the deck is not installed. A snow blower and plow are usually the other attachments used.
Bob MacGregor in CT :mrgreen: :mowlawn:
 

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I think you may have loosened up the EZ adjust collar when you took that 3/4" nut off to replace the fan (it is easy to do) I would pull the cooler off to the side and re-adjust the clutch so you have the .007-.011" of clearance at the facing and try to engage the deck again... Good luck!! :thumbsup:
 

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Bob I saw that you said that awhile back that you need to hold the engine from turning but the manual does not say that. All it says is that you need to hold the adjusting nut guide and then tighten the hex nut to 45ftlbs.
I was mowing with a 446 and the clutch backed off of adjustment and I've been playing heck getting it right. EZ my foot.
Is the manual wrong?
 

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Hi CP7 and group,
Unfortunately the service manual doesn't address the fact that the flywheel needs to be kept from moving when performing these adjustments. The flywheel will almost always turn when adjusting the 1 3/4" nut and torquing the fan nut preventing you from obtaining a correct adjustment. Just one of those facts of Case/Ingersoll life. I have found the threads on the stud need to be chased periodically also.
I use a Snap-On # A176 adjustable pin spanner, but anyone can take a piece of metal flatbar, drill two 1/4" holes spaced to the holes on an Onan flywheel screen and install two 1/4" bolts and nuts to hold the bolts in place. You can also drill and tap the holes for the bolts. Let the flywheel rotate clockwise until the tool rests on the left side tractor frame. I no longer adjust to .002"-.007" disc gap, I adjust to the point where there is no drag on the pulley from the disc and lock it up there. You gotta remember to remove this tool before you crank the engine over!!!!
Mad Mackie in Taxonnecticut :mrgreen: :mowlawn:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Bob MacGregor said:
Hi bobneumann and group,
Do you have a Shim adjust or an EZ adjust clutch? Similar but adjusted differently.
When I operated a 448 commercially I kept one Belleville washer to use as refference to check the ones in use on my clutch, I also kept a pair in my parts stash as spares. They do in time loose some of their original shape which affects the clutch operation.
You need to download and read the appropiate clutch service manual here on this site. Clutches are not adjusted while engaged and you lost whatever adjustment you had when you replaced the fan. You really need to move the oil cooler to the side when adjusting the clutch. If you have an Onan with an EZ Adjust clutch you need a 1 3/4" open end wrench, 3/4" socket, a torque wrench and some means of preventing the flywheel from turning, I use an adjustable pin spanner for this with the pins stuck into the holes in the flywheel screen and resting on the tractor frame.
Some folks recommend that the clutch be kept engaged all the time when the mower deck is not installed, but I'm not one of them. Generally the major use of these machines is for mowing and limited use when the deck is not installed. A snow blower and plow are usually the other attachments used.
Bob MacGregor in CT :mrgreen: :mowlawn:
It's a shim-adjust clutch, so as far as I can tell, barring my putting it back together in the entirely wrong order, or losing spacers, etc. I cant see how disassembing it could affect the adjustment. In fact, I hadn't even pulled the inner cam off/out until the clutch didn't work. Even then I only pulled out what I had to in order to confirm that I didn't have anything completely out-of-whack. It's all seems to be seating tightly back in place, it just doesn't get as tight as it used to.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the front barrel and springs are stuck to the inner race of the front cam bearing. I'm thinking I'll pull it off, shoot some PB Blaster in there, smack it all loose, clean/polish it up, and it'll probably work OK again.

That's what I hope anyway...

Bob
 

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Must say I'm not sure how running the bearings continuously under 'high' axial load (bellville spring load when engaged) vs. 'low' axial load (return wave spring load when disengaged) would save the bearing life - other than the possibility of the inner races spinning on the shaft it is badly worn (especially the one in the hub itself). I may be missing something though...

The shaft on my tractor was worn under the hub and obtaining an accurate 0.002" to 0.007" was beyond the schope of my patients. So I did what Mackie did and shimmed it up until the discs were barely touching only 'free wheeled' about a quarter to half a turn when I spun the hub by hand.

So if you have the the discs set to such a gap and then pull the engagement arm reward you will notice the cams will move away from each other. At first the rear cam will move in the rearward direction and compress the wave springs (the 'return' springs) behind the hub bearing. Once the discs faces contact each other solidly the forward cam will begin the move foward and compress the belleville spings. The belleville springs are what provide the compressive load between the discs.

If the initial gap is too large the belleville springs will never get compressed or not compressed enough to provide adequate loading of the discs.

I agree with Mackie too in that if you dont hold the shaft from turning while tightening the nut on the end the shaft can then turn inside of the adjustor nut. Doesnt take much rotation of the shaft in the nut to through it out of adjustment. If the thread count is 20 thread per inch (i have no idea what it acutally is) then there each full rotation would equate to 0.050". So 1/10th of a turn would equate to 0.005".
 

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Oh, yeah. I screwed up the first time I put mine back together because I didnt have the front spacer on right and I messed it up when tighten the bolt. The spacer is counterbored to fit over the shaft and I had it cocked and when I tightend the bolt I created a burr around one half of the counterbore. So I had to remove that burr to get the entire thing shimmed conistently.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
bobneumann said:
The more I think about it, the more I think that the front barrel and springs are stuck to the inner race of the front cam bearing. I'm thinking I'll pull it off, shoot some PB Blaster in there, smack it all loose, clean/polish it up, and it'll probably work OK again.

That's what I hope anyway...

Bob
Well it's finally working again. I guessed right, more or less. The bearing race was stuck to the front barrel spacer, so that the bearing couldn't slide front-to-back. The belleville springs were compressed and stuck that way. I took it all apart, cleaned/emeried/lubed and reassembled.

I think when I pressure washed it this spring it caused rust between the race and spacer. And I thought I was helping.... :shock:

Along the way I found that the 3.25" x 3/8 LH bolt was broken off in the clutch hub. so I had to pull the clutch hub to drill the broken bolt out. Along the way to doing that I found how fun it is to get those hex flat screws out of the pressure plate. DARN NEAR rung one out. Years ago I picked up a little tube of something called Screw Grab. It's essentially a runny cream with carbide grit in it. It's to stop a bit from turning inside a screw, and it saved my bacon. But I used my very last drop, I'm going to have to go looking for more. So I replaced the two flat screws, and replaced the LH bolt, and put it all back together again.

Voila.

Side question: Does the hydraulic oil in these tractors "ever" overheat? because without a shroud, that nylon fan isn't accomplishing much. Sure would be easy to fab up an aluminum shroud with a belt keeper built into it. It would give you a secure place to put your belt when the mule bracket is removed, and you wouldn't have to thread/unthread the belt around the fan. (and save breaking off fanblades in the process)

Anybody ever done anything like that?

Bob
 

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1. If you can break a blade off of your fan, then the fan is old, brittle and needs to be replaced anyway.

2. If the oil cooler is clean, the fins are not bent over, the fan is in good shape and the rest of the hydraulic system is in proper working order, then overheating should never be an issue.

3. A shroud may interfere with changing the belt. Belts do wear out. There is one belt for the deck and a different belt for the snowblower.

I have yet to see anyone fabricate a fan shroud but I hear ya. I can understand why you are asking however...you may be trying to solve a problem where no problem exists.
 

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Bob - although it is a bit tight I dont have a problem getting my belt between the fan/bolt and cooler fins. But then again I'm using a 1/2" belt from TSC.

Oil doesnt seem to get all that hot when mowing for a couple of hours straight. Other thread have touched on this subject and as I recall the max temps achieved were in the 150F range. Not very bad at all. Dont think it would be beneficial to add a shroud. thats a pretty big cooler for the volume too.
 

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Rockdog said:
Must say I'm not sure how running the bearings continuously under 'high' axial load (bellville spring load when engaged) vs. 'low' axial load (return wave spring load when disengaged) would save the bearing life - other than the possibility of the inner races spinning on the shaft it is badly worn (especially the one in the hub itself). I may be missing something though...
The recommendation to leave the PTO engaged is found on pg 16 of Timely Tips manual # 9-51610.
My interpretation was that it would increase service life of the friction disc, not the bearings.
Then again, I too may be missing something
 

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The cost of the Belleville washers far exceeds the cost of the clutch disc.

Realistically, most of us leave a deck on the tractor all the time. We grudgingly remove the deck only when we are forced to, in order to use another attachment. That fact pretty much precludes keeping the clutch engaged, does it not?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
That's right, it WAS "Timely Tips". Isn't that supposed to be trustworthy?

In hindsight, I didn't actually hurt my belleville washers. In fact, they turned out to be stuck in the disengaged position, same as they would have been if I'd left the pto disengaged the whole time. Come to think of it, leaving the PTO engaged is actually EASIER on the belleville washers, since they're not spending the whole time being compressed. So I still think the tip to keep the clutch engaged is a good one: the belleville washers are more relaxed, and there is one fewer bearing spinning.

The problem was that I introduced rust under my bearing races by means of my pressure washing. So an even better tip might be DON'T PRESSURE WASH YOUR PTO CLUTCH. :thumbup:

As for the brittle fan, you're right, my new blade is very supple. I didn't even know the old one wasn't supposed to be brittle. But How often do I have to replace the fan? What do I do when they stop making them?

I'm sure you're right, I'm probably trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I just noticed is all...

Bob
 

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I would not worry about the fan not being available. It's already in the aftermarket world.

As for how long a fan lasts.............that would depend on how much love you show it. Careful cleaning and polishing with Mother's products twice a day will keep it as supple as teenage ballet dancer. For the rest of us that actually have a life, if we get 15 years or so out of one, we think that's long enough. :lol:
 
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