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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Wanted to Buy - Power Steering Parts

I think I'll need it because I'm repowering with a four cylinder power unit. The engine and radiator approach 400#, and I think I'll need a little steering help. I'm also stretching the frame 6", increasing the front wheels and tires to 20/8-10, and upgrading the axle and spindles because of the weight.
 

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Re: Wanted to Buy - Power Steering Parts

OK.

Then you won't be using the mechanical PTO that was on the front of the Onan and removal of the PTO lever will also take place. That helps with the shortage of space inside the dash tower. You have several choices available.

1. Ingersoll tractors that came with power steering are now being parted out on e-Bay. Joe's Outdoor Power in Michigan is a possible source.

2. Also being parted out are John Deere and Cub Cadet tractors that came stock with power steering.

3. In the Tech Library under Hydraulics is a Danfoss catalogue that covers their line of steering pumps such as the OSPM 50. These appear for sale on e-Bay every now and then. I have seen them for as little as $90.00 brand new.

Depending upon how you intend to use the tractor, a decision will have to be made regarding the stock hydraulic pump. The normal approach to adding power steering is to use a Priority Valve that is adjustable between 0 and 4 GPM. That means that the Priority Valve is going to steal whatever amount of hydraulic fluid it is set for from the total output of the pump. If your OEM pump puts out 9 GPM at 3600 RPM, then all that will be available for the drive motor is 5 to 7 GPM and the top ground speed will be reduced accordingly. The remedy is obvious. Go with a larger pump. There will be no shortage of HP and Torque with the new power plant so you could put in a 14 GPM pump and still not exceed the ability of the other hydraulic parts to handle that much flow.

As for the front axle itself, they are quite strong as long as you don't subject them to large shock loads by ramming them into stuff. After all, people do put front-end loaders on these tractors and they lift upwards of 400 LBS in the bucket plus the added weight of the loader unit. I certainly agree with upgrading the spindles. As for going to 10" rims, you will have to watch your clearances at the lock to lock points with the axle in full tilt positions on both sides. These tractors are not known for a tight turning radius.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Wanted to Buy - Power Steering Parts

Wow! I REALLY appreciate the information, and the anticipation of issues to come. That is invaluable, thank you.

You are correct, I will not be using the mechanical PTO, and will be removing the PTO lever.

I have seen power steering on the John Deere 400, for example, and although I need to do research on how to hook up the 5 ports, (and the hydraulics in general) That looked like one viable option. I will also look in the tech library at the Danfoss option. That sounds like a good one.

I also understand the priority valve (when that feature isn't built into the pump) to "bleed off" oil for the steering. I was anticipating 1.5-2.5 GPM for power steering, and was looking at pump replacement options. Our local Fleet Farm has 11 and 16 GPM Pumps they sell for wood splitter applications, but I haven't looked at them closely enough to determine if that's a viable option.

I was also looking at replacing the drive motor on the 446 with a drive motor from a 226. I thought I could recover some ground speed by doing this.

I have built a similar front axle ont of 2"x3" rectangular tubing for another project that i would use here with Allis Chalmers B axle ends and spindles. The result is very similar to the Case construction garden tractor with a loader and backhoe capabilities, but very stout spindles. I intend to use 31x15.5-15" or 31x13.5-15" rears, so I can "cheat" and make the front axle slightly longer, having perhaps a 35" wide tread pattern vs the stock 33".

I can't thank you enough for the detailed response. Any additional thoughts you may have would be greatly appreciated.
 

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Re: Wanted to Buy - Power Steering Parts

GBACBFan said:
Wow! I REALLY appreciate the information, and the anticipation of issues to come. That is invaluable, thank you.

No problem. It's what we strive to do on this forum.

You are correct, I will not be using the mechanical PTO, and will be removing the PTO lever.

I have seen power steering on the John Deere 400, for example, and although I need to do research on how to hook up the 5 ports, (and the hydraulics in general) That looked like one viable option.

You can use the JD power steering if you can find a good deal on a complete package (pump and cylinder). 2 ports are there for the cylinder. 2 ports are the fluid IN and fluid OUT. The 5th port is a "Power Beyond" port which you don't need. Therefore, you can just plug it and forget it. I will also look in the tech library at the Danfoss option. That sounds like a good one.

I also understand the priority valve (when that feature isn't built into the pump) to "bleed off" oil for the steering. I was anticipating 1.5-2.5 GPM for power steering, You may get away with 1.5 to 2.5 but that will depend on the size of the steering pump you use and that is sized to the steering cylinder. The steering pump MUST see enough fluid coming into it so that no matter how fast you turn the steering wheel, there is adequate oil available to send to the steering cylinder. and was looking at pump replacement options. Our local Fleet Farm has 11 and 16 GPM Pumps they sell for wood splitter applications, but I haven't looked at them closely enough to determine if that's a viable option. I doubt that these would work. Most wood splitter pumps are two-stage. They provide a high volume of oil when there is no pressure in the system so that the ram moves toward the log quickly and also retracts quickly. When the ram hits the log, the pressure begins to rise rapidly as the splitting begins and the pump automatically kicks into stage two and only delivers a small amount of oil until the splitting is completed.

I was also looking at replacing the drive motor on the 446 with a drive motor from a 226. I thought I could recover some ground speed by doing this. Yes, that will give you higher ground speed but at the cost of low-end grunt. If all you want to do is to show this tractor and parade it, then the 200 series motor might be advantageous.

I have built a similar front axle ont of 2"x3" rectangular tubing for another project that i would use here with Allis Chalmers B axle ends and spindles. The result is very similar to the Case construction garden tractor with a loader and backhoe capabilities, but very stout spindles. I intend to use 31x15.5-15" or 31x13.5-15" rears, so I can "cheat" and make the front axle slightly longer, having perhaps a 35" wide tread pattern vs the stock 33". The loader tractors used 15" rims but you don't see them come up for sale very often. 6 on 6 rims with the correct offset are not easy to find but rim centers can be moved to a different offset.

I can't thank you enough for the detailed response. Any additional thoughts you may have would be greatly appreciated.
 

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Howdy "Green Bay Allis Chalmers B Fan" !

Took me a bit to figure out GBACBFAN. Well, looks like you got hydriv's blessings on the project. Just don't leave any over spray on the tires when your done... he doesn't like that ! LOL !

Seriously, I just wanted to make sure everyone understands that your essentially, almost, going to end up making a scale model of another tractor using a Case frame and drive concepts. You couldn't have picked a better base in my opinion. Its going to be very interesting to see how it all comes together for you. We're all going to be looking for PHOTOS, that's for sure !
 

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I wish you lots of luck on your future project. I too have a devilish plan, for a 446,this fall/winter. I appreciate custom work and ideas that show a finished product. As with any custom job, give it all that you can. :thumbup: oldfrank
 

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I really liked the picture of the Case with the automotive recirculating ball steering gear mounted at the side with the pitman arm swinging fore-aft. Seems like a manual gear would be enough. But you could always use a power unit with a pump off the same vehicle run via a belt. Probably a whole lot cheaper too.

Wonder if a center take off rack unit mounted for-aft (tucked away under the frame) would work as the valve could be canted rearwards?
 

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Since this tractor won't be used for any work and you intend to stretch the frame anyway......... another option would be to use a pump such as this one.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?i ... =hydraulic

and then install a motor from a 200 Series.

This is a double pump with separate inlets and outlets. The rear pump could feed into a cheap, adjustable flow divider that would split the flow between the power steering pump and the reservoir. The front pump would be dedicated to the drive motor. This would eliminate the need for an expensive priority valve but you might have to stretch the frame and extra inch or so to accommodate the longer pump body. If that messes with your plans, then you could cut a large hole in the steering tower to let the pump stick out of it and then close that hole with a removable box.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I like that pump option a LOT. I have room, in that the 7" stretch I'm planning is to accommodate the starter. I'm going to be notching the dash tower slightly on the side for the starter, and that is the piece that sticks back the farthest. Even with this 6"+ pump, I believe I'll have plenty of room for the pump and a power steering valve.

The hydraulics part of these tractors is new to me, and I'm trying to read, listen, and learn all I can to make good decisions starting out. The input and the willingness for everyone I've talked to to help, has been great. It saves a lot of agony to get opinions form folks that have "been there, done that." As I actually begin cutting and building, I'll post pics so you can see the progress.

Thanks again.
 

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Just remember steering is sort of oppposite of what you may expect from a load standpoint. Highest loads / effort will be at a stand-still on pavement (gets worse with the more weight you are supporting by the front tires). Therefore worst case will most likely be when you are at a stand-still on pavement, low tire pressure, LOW IDLE, and fast movement of steering wheel.
 

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Rockdog said:
Tom - do the garden tractor steering valves or pumps include a bypass/relief valve?
There isn't a "one size fits all" answer to your question. Steering pumps can be purchased with or without relief valves built in to them. If you are looking for a steering pump, either new or used, then you have to get the make/model # and contact the manufacturer to get the specs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The pump on the attached link looked to be perfect for my use, but as I was double checking the pump before ordering, I realized this pump is CCW. If I'm correct that the direction is determined by looking at the pump from the shaft end, the direction I need is CW or bi directional. I could not find a comparable CW or bi directional double pump with the GPM I need on the Surplus Center site. Is there a comparable CW double pump that I have overlooked?
 

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I suggest that you telephone Surplus Center and speak with them about the pump direction issue. Just tell them that you are direct driving the pump off of the crankshaft end of an Onan engine. Some pumps can be made to operate in the opposite direction by dismantling them and flipping around the center section.
 

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The tandem pump is a great option and was used on the 4100 and 6000/7000 Ingersolls. You could reference those layouts in the part catalogs for a reasonable way to configure the system.

The particular pump noted did not have a very large primary side output ... I would think you would want to get at least up in to the stock 9gpm range ... perhaps higher if you intend to try to have more transport speed with the tractor. Sounds like HP won't be your limiting factor, here. Price is good, though.

As a caution, you may want some more serious steering if you try to get 10+mph ... many owner's have reported back that the stock front steering linkage and geometry is a bit dicey as you speed the tractors up ... I would tend to agree.

Hope you have fun with it ...

Brian
 

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Hi,
First of all, I am not a hydraulic expert, but just have the following question that's been bugging me.
I have similar interest in this project and was wondering if by not using the attachment lift system, could one use that line for an all in one power steering unit such as that from a Yanmar model YM186 compact tractor? This in hopes for not buying a larger or double pump.
Thanks,
Mike
 

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mnoonan said:
Hi,
First of all, I am not a hydraulic expert, but just have the following question that's been bugging me.
I have similar interest in this project and was wondering if by not using the attachment lift system, could one use that line for an all in one power steering unit such as that from a Yanmar model YM186 compact tractor? This in hopes for not buying a larger or double pump.
Thanks,
Mike
Welcome to the party, Mike.

The Case garden tractors came with a hydraulic pump that put out 8 to 10 gallons per minute. This amount of oil flow is needed by the drive motor in order for the tractor to travel along the ground at its rated speed. Attachments that are run off of the rear hydraulic PTO are also relying upon the pump putting out that much oil so that they can work at peak efficiency. Power steering is an "oil robber" because it requires a certain amount of oil flow constantly and consistently if it is to work smoothly and most importantly.....work safely. When you turn the wheel, you expect the front wheels to turn. If they don't turn due to a lack of available oil, then you could strike immovable objects or end up driving off a cliff.

If you were to lock the lift spool into a position where it would be delivering oil to the power steering pump, there is no guarantee that the P/S pump would SEE the constant flow of oil that it needs in order to work smoothly and safely. This is why the engineers either choose a double pump or a priority valve that immediately separates X amount of output from the pump before that oil has a chance to go anywhere else in the system. How does Yanmar supply oil to this P/S unit you are referring to? Do they have a separate, dedicated P/S pump? Or do they have it being fed from the hydraulic system of the tractor?
 
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