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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Happy New Year Gents!

I found a few threads pertaining to this swap but didn't get any definite answers.

I have a 4016 with the Vanguard 16hp engine. It has over 1,100/hrs on it and it's starting to show it's age burning some oil on startup, using oil through the summer months, leaking a little from the main seals, and pulling some oil through the breather tube. I've pulled the engine a few times and I promised myself the next time would be repower time. Well, now I have a good excuse to pull the trigger. I put a new starter on it this summer and like an idiot, didn't think about it needing the nylon pinion gear. The starter bound up yesterday and I found a broken ring gear tooth.

I could put a new 16hp or 18hp in it but I figure the few extra bucks spent on the 23hp would be well worth it blowing snow. Based on the research I have done, here's what I understand (minus the little stuff like choke/throttle cables).

1) The 23hp with the black blower housing and cooling fan are deeper, which prevents the pump drive adapter from bolting on directly.
2) The 23hp with the red blower housing and cooling fan are shallower and will accommodate the pump drive adapter.
3) The 23hp is longer and may require drilling new engine mount holes in the frame.
4) The 23hp is longer and may require a different PTO clutch that locates the pulley inboard, closer to the crankcase.

Here's what I don't understand:

1) I have searched Small Engine Warehouse's site and cannot find a 23hp Vanguard with the shallow red blower housing. Are these discontinued?
2) If you use the shallow housing, do you still need to move the engine forward in the frame and use a different clutch?
3) Does the new clutch (if required) fit the 1" x 29/32" crank or will I need the engine with the 1-1/8" x 3" crank?

Any input is much appreciated! Thanks in advance!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Have you checked Predictor engine specks, there has been a few member that have used them ? ...........Curt
I considered it for a minute but decided swapping the Vanguard for another Vanguard would be easier and require less fabrication. I also have reservations regarding the quality of anything from Harbor Freight. Some people roll the dice and luck out but this is my only tractor for blowing snow and cutting grass and I can't afford the downtime.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Alot have the same reservations on anything that says "Briggs and Stratton"
The Predator 670 charging system puts out 2-amps. The Vanguard charging system puts out 16-amps. You can up the output of the Predator's charging system by replacing it's three magnet flywheel for a Honda flywheel with six magnets if you desire to purchase a brand new $1000 Chinese engine and replace it's flywheel for $140.

New Briggs engines come with a 3yr warranty. Predator engines do not.

I also recall people having difficulty finding simple maintenance parts like air filters and oil filters for the Predator engines.

No thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I belong to a couple forums and Mini bike and garden tractor on Face Book, the are using them all the time, and are good...........Curt
My friend put one in a minibike and both the tappets broke off their stems at less than 100/hrs and it still had the governor on it too. I've seen people build them with good billet parts with great results but I'm not going there with my garden tractor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Some more info I've learned from doing more research, the 23hp Vanguards with the shallow red blower housings and flywheels are NLA. So either I swap the tin and the flywheel from my old engine or I find a way to make the deep housing and flywheel from the new engine work.

I'm waiting for some clarification on the clutch setup as Bob MacGregor's old post indicated that the required clutch for this swap is the Onan clutch that fits 1-1/8" shaft.
 

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If it's an actual 23hp, blowing snow the engine power will not be the limiting factor for long. Putting that much torque through a single b section belt will however. The belt drive is pretty much maxed out with stock hp, so much so that belt life is severely curtailed as is.
 

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If it's an actual 23hp, blowing snow the engine power will not be the limiting factor for long. Putting that much torque through a single b section belt will however. The belt drive is pretty much maxed out with stock hp, so much so that belt life is severely curtailed as is.
I've been running a 23hp Vanguard in my 4223 for 7 years and still on the same belts for both the snow caster and mowing deck. I overdrive both the deck and caster with modified drives. I feel my other tractor with an 18hp Onan actually puts out more potentially belt-breaking torque. This is more a from-the-seat observation from operating them over the years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I've been running a 23hp Vanguard in my 4223 for 7 years and still on the same belts for both the snow caster and mowing deck. I overdrive both the deck and caster with modified drives. I feel my other tractor with an 18hp Onan actually puts out more potentially belt-breaking torque. This is more a from-the-seat observation from operating them over the years.
I plan on doing as you suggested and overdriving the deck and snowcaster a little to take advantage of the extra power. I run the 60" deck while pulling a 44" trail mower for an 8.5' wide cut and the old 16hp really lugs down pulling itself, my 230lbs, and the trail mower up my walkout and the hills on my property.

If it's an actual 23hp, blowing snow the engine power will not be the limiting factor for long. Putting that much torque through a single b section belt will however. The belt drive is pretty much maxed out with stock hp, so much so that belt life is severely curtailed as is.
Ingersoll wouldn't have sold 23hp tractors and claimed interchangeability with all of their attachments if they were consistently breaking belts. I also buy Kevlar reinforced belts that I'm confident will handle the extra power.
 

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I've been running a 23hp Vanguard in my 4223 for 7 years and still on the same belts for both the snow caster and mowing deck. I overdrive both the deck and caster with modified drives. I feel my other tractor with an 18hp Onan actually puts out more potentially belt-breaking torque. This is more a from-the-seat observation from operating them over the years.
This is good to know! Thanks for posting. What do you mean by overdriving? Smaller pulleys and speed it up a bit........Curt
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Here is a post from another forum where the poster had the same blower housing clearance issues with an 18hp Vanguard. Apparently all of the new engines have the deep blower housing and fan. If I have to go through the same process to put a 16hp back in the tractor, I might as well put the 23hp in.

 

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I also buy Kevlar reinforced belts that I'm confident will handle the extra power.
Not a good idea unless you can find Kevlar belts in the correct size - which is very difficult.

 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Not a good idea unless you can find Kevlar belts in the correct size - which is very difficult.

Funny story for you about that!

My Snowcaster is an R84 that I restored and converted to the correct drive rotation with OEM parts. My nearest Ingersoll dealer is a one hour round trip and they charge a processing fee when you pay with card and a restocking fee on returns. The first hookup of the Snowcaster on the tractor required three trips to their store in a week, receiving the wrong belt each time, and paying their fees each time to determine that the Snowcaster does not take a standard length belt. Enter the 1/2" Kevlar belt.

The RM60 only required one trip to the dealer for an OEM belt and I cut my grass the same day flawlessly for three hours. The following week, I engaged the clutch to go out and cut and it violently blew apart. I called the dealer, no warranty. I said @%#$ this and ordered a 1/2" Kevlar belt for it.

The Kevlar belt on the Snowcaster has been in service for four seasons. I just replaced the belt on the RM60 this fall after a mule drive idler pulley bearing seized. It had three seasons on it and I cut nearly 3 acres every 4-5 days. I've never had issues with slipping and the belts don't bottom out in any of the pulleys.
 
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