Case Colt Ingersoll Tractors banner
1 - 20 of 53 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Happy New Year Gents!

I found a few threads pertaining to this swap but didn't get any definite answers.

I have a 4016 with the Vanguard 16hp engine. It has over 1,100/hrs on it and it's starting to show it's age burning some oil on startup, using oil through the summer months, leaking a little from the main seals, and pulling some oil through the breather tube. I've pulled the engine a few times and I promised myself the next time would be repower time. Well, now I have a good excuse to pull the trigger. I put a new starter on it this summer and like an idiot, didn't think about it needing the nylon pinion gear. The starter bound up yesterday and I found a broken ring gear tooth.

I could put a new 16hp or 18hp in it but I figure the few extra bucks spent on the 23hp would be well worth it blowing snow. Based on the research I have done, here's what I understand (minus the little stuff like choke/throttle cables).

1) The 23hp with the black blower housing and cooling fan are deeper, which prevents the pump drive adapter from bolting on directly.
2) The 23hp with the red blower housing and cooling fan are shallower and will accommodate the pump drive adapter.
3) The 23hp is longer and may require drilling new engine mount holes in the frame.
4) The 23hp is longer and may require a different PTO clutch that locates the pulley inboard, closer to the crankcase.

Here's what I don't understand:

1) I have searched Small Engine Warehouse's site and cannot find a 23hp Vanguard with the shallow red blower housing. Are these discontinued?
2) If you use the shallow housing, do you still need to move the engine forward in the frame and use a different clutch?
3) Does the new clutch (if required) fit the 1" x 29/32" crank or will I need the engine with the 1-1/8" x 3" crank?

Any input is much appreciated! Thanks in advance!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Have you checked Predictor engine specks, there has been a few member that have used them ? ...........Curt
I considered it for a minute but decided swapping the Vanguard for another Vanguard would be easier and require less fabrication. I also have reservations regarding the quality of anything from Harbor Freight. Some people roll the dice and luck out but this is my only tractor for blowing snow and cutting grass and I can't afford the downtime.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Alot have the same reservations on anything that says "Briggs and Stratton"
The Predator 670 charging system puts out 2-amps. The Vanguard charging system puts out 16-amps. You can up the output of the Predator's charging system by replacing it's three magnet flywheel for a Honda flywheel with six magnets if you desire to purchase a brand new $1000 Chinese engine and replace it's flywheel for $140.

New Briggs engines come with a 3yr warranty. Predator engines do not.

I also recall people having difficulty finding simple maintenance parts like air filters and oil filters for the Predator engines.

No thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I belong to a couple forums and Mini bike and garden tractor on Face Book, the are using them all the time, and are good...........Curt
My friend put one in a minibike and both the tappets broke off their stems at less than 100/hrs and it still had the governor on it too. I've seen people build them with good billet parts with great results but I'm not going there with my garden tractor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Some more info I've learned from doing more research, the 23hp Vanguards with the shallow red blower housings and flywheels are NLA. So either I swap the tin and the flywheel from my old engine or I find a way to make the deep housing and flywheel from the new engine work.

I'm waiting for some clarification on the clutch setup as Bob MacGregor's old post indicated that the required clutch for this swap is the Onan clutch that fits 1-1/8" shaft.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I've been running a 23hp Vanguard in my 4223 for 7 years and still on the same belts for both the snow caster and mowing deck. I overdrive both the deck and caster with modified drives. I feel my other tractor with an 18hp Onan actually puts out more potentially belt-breaking torque. This is more a from-the-seat observation from operating them over the years.
I plan on doing as you suggested and overdriving the deck and snowcaster a little to take advantage of the extra power. I run the 60" deck while pulling a 44" trail mower for an 8.5' wide cut and the old 16hp really lugs down pulling itself, my 230lbs, and the trail mower up my walkout and the hills on my property.

If it's an actual 23hp, blowing snow the engine power will not be the limiting factor for long. Putting that much torque through a single b section belt will however. The belt drive is pretty much maxed out with stock hp, so much so that belt life is severely curtailed as is.
Ingersoll wouldn't have sold 23hp tractors and claimed interchangeability with all of their attachments if they were consistently breaking belts. I also buy Kevlar reinforced belts that I'm confident will handle the extra power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Here is a post from another forum where the poster had the same blower housing clearance issues with an 18hp Vanguard. Apparently all of the new engines have the deep blower housing and fan. If I have to go through the same process to put a 16hp back in the tractor, I might as well put the 23hp in.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Not a good idea unless you can find Kevlar belts in the correct size - which is very difficult.

Funny story for you about that!

My Snowcaster is an R84 that I restored and converted to the correct drive rotation with OEM parts. My nearest Ingersoll dealer is a one hour round trip and they charge a processing fee when you pay with card and a restocking fee on returns. The first hookup of the Snowcaster on the tractor required three trips to their store in a week, receiving the wrong belt each time, and paying their fees each time to determine that the Snowcaster does not take a standard length belt. Enter the 1/2" Kevlar belt.

The RM60 only required one trip to the dealer for an OEM belt and I cut my grass the same day flawlessly for three hours. The following week, I engaged the clutch to go out and cut and it violently blew apart. I called the dealer, no warranty. I said @%#$ this and ordered a 1/2" Kevlar belt for it.

The Kevlar belt on the Snowcaster has been in service for four seasons. I just replaced the belt on the RM60 this fall after a mule drive idler pulley bearing seized. It had three seasons on it and I cut nearly 3 acres every 4-5 days. I've never had issues with slipping and the belts don't bottom out in any of the pulleys.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Thanks for sharing this info Mr. Bob!

The flywheel, fan, and housing revisions make sense after the issues they had with overheating heads and dropping valve guides. I'd like to figure out what Ingersoll did on the late production tractors to run the deep blower housings.

As we don't have parts manuals for the late production 4018, 4021, 4221, 4023 and 4223 models, we don't know what changes Ingersoll did to these tractors to connect the hydraulic pump to these engines.

We do know that the pump shaft and pump adapter on older Vanguard powered Ingersoll tractors will not connect to the newer Vanguard engines.
I spent a few hours last night looking for these parts manuals to no avail. How did they manage to produce these tractors without parts manuals?

At this point, FastEddie is wondering what to do and I fully understand!!!!
There is a 23 HP Vanguard conversion kit available at Small Engine Warehouse that he could actually use but with some minor changes which I will get into for him in my next post!:cool:
I'm trying to avoid using their conversion kit for Onan tractors because as I'd be paying for the Onan pump adapter and mount adapter plate that I won't be using. They show 70+ of the 23hp base engines in stock and I can go that route if I can nail down what clutch I need to use so I can pick the right crank diameter.

I have fab tools at my disposal to make heat shields and an exhaust system and full machine shop access to make spacers, modify the pump torque arm, or make a new pump adapter if needed. I'm motivated to make this thing happen.

You answered my big question on the blower housing so next is the clutch. The 23hp is longer so I will need the Onan 1-1/8" x 3" shaft clutch with the pulley towards the crankcase to offset the extra length? I'm referencing one of your older posts showing pictures of this clutch on an 18hp Vanguard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Thanks Bob, this is good stuff!

I can definitely see why you would prefer repowering with the lower horsepower engines and swapping parts for ease of use. I'm at a crossroads with reusing parts from my old engine. The muffler has been welded and saved several times, the blower housing is beat up from the previous owner, the flywheel is now junk, and there's more. I'm to the point now that I might as well start over and the 23hp engine doesn't cost much more than the 16hp or 18hp engines and it's more available.

If I need to machine a spacer to move the pump further out of the flywheel, I can machine a longer pilot button to make up the distance and center the pump shaft. Or I could machine the spacer with a pilot that centers the I.D. of the pump adapter and eliminate the pilot button. I don't know how much room I will have to play with at the clutch end after that but hopefully the Onan clutch will give a little leeway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Here is a link to B&S repower specs.
The reason why a horizontal 23 Vanguard is taller than an 18 is due to the 23 having a side draft 2 barrel carb fed from a single fuel bowl where the 18 has a single barrel downdraft carb.
V twins have a primary cylinder and a secondary cylinder by virtue of design. On higher HP models, the fuel metering is different between cylinders and the secondary cylinder doesn't need as rich of fuel mixture as the primary cylinder and the reason for the 2 barrel carb. I still have the new style flywheel, blower housing, fan and starter motor from the last re-power and I can take pics of these parts and post them here tomorrow. :cool:

Thanks for sharing the Repower Specs, I didn't know that document was available.

According to B&S, the 23hp is a little less than 1/2" taller and 1/4" longer than the 16-18hp. But that's also comparing the revised housings and their length measurements on the smaller engines is from the face of the crankcase to the face of the recoil starter which won't be used. The 21-23hp engines definitely have a deeper blower housing as the length measurement on those is from the face of the crankcase to face of the debris screen without a recoil starter.

I'm not too concerned about the height, I don't mind raising the hood if need be. I wish they gave measurements from the crankcase face to the flywheel face. Assuming the 23hp block itself is the same length as the other blocks, the only distance I have to account for if I machine a pump drive spacer is the face of the blower housing to the face of the flywheel and I'm guessing Ingersoll made that possible on the 4023 and other 23hp tractors by relocating the PTO pulley by using the Onan clutch.

Mr. Bob do you happen to know a part number for the XtremeOPE clutch with the inboard pulley?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Bob, I think I will take your advice and consider SEW 23hp kit below. I figure the heat shields and muffler alone justify the price of the kit over the base engine.


The engine comes with the mount plate for an Onan application but the listing says this kit fits several Ingersoll tractors with Briggs engines. When they open, I'm going to call them and see what installation notes they have available as far as clutch recommendations and measurements for the flywheel pump drive adapter it comes with. If it has the same bolt centers, I can machine a pilot adapter to center my pump drive on it. It has a 1-1/8" x 3-5/8" crank with what appears to be a solid steel spacer and a brass washer that go behind the clutch and I don't know what the idea behind that is. The enigne in this kit is the only Briggs engine they list with that crank size.

I visited Xtreme's website and looked through all the Ingersoll clutches available and narrowed them down to a few that I think will work. What stinks about their site is that they list the crank diameter but not the shaft length.

I'll follow up when I get more info.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
So Small Engine Warehouse was not particularly helpful over the phone. The guy I spoke said he knows no details other than the kit is designed to replace an Onan in these tractors. I asked if he could send me the installation notes or find out the bolt circle of the flywheel adapter and he said they don't have that info in a PDF - it's all on paper and sent with the engine when purchased. So basically I need to purchase the engine to find out if it will work or not.

He did say that the 1-1/8" x 3-5/8" crank is either a sawed-off 4" long crank or the usable length is reduced with spacers but he was not sure which. The pictures do show spacers but they look like they take up more length than 3/8".

He also said that the lower horsepower Vanguards are in high demand, short supply, and unavailable indefinitely. The engines they currently have in stock are part of repower kits already and can't be sold separately.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #37 ·
FastEddie,
Here are some pics of a new 4023 or 4223 that I took years ago at a local Ingersoll dealer. The clutch on this engine is a Warner 5215-42 which is C47447. Ingersoll has a replacement kit for this clutch which is C48626. When used on a 23 Vanguard, an anti-torque bracket is needed. This tractor was from the last production from Ingersoll when it was in Wisconsin so it is mid to late 2000 model year.
Mr. Bob you are a legend! Thanks for sharing the pics! Thanks to you guys I feel like I'm not shooting in the dark anymore. The repower kit from SEW shows a smooth stud threaded into the face of the block and I'm assuming that is used in place of the anti-torque bracket. It's probably for the Onan clutch so I still have a little homework to do on that one.

I wonder why they needed a two-piece custom shroud. Ease of removal for cleaning so you don't have to pull the engine I assume? I have a cutoff wheel and a welder - I can do that :D The length of shroud on the 4223 appears to be the same length as the factory 23hp shroud when you reference how far the oil cooler extends past it.

Most times that a shaft such as a crankshaft on an engine has a reduced size, the turning is radiused to avoid breakage at that spot. This is the reason that a double chamfered spacer needs to be installed onto the shaft. When an item like a clutch is installed onto a crankshaft, it would get bound onto the radiused area and be near to impossible to remove once it is tightened. The spacer goes on then the key is put in place, then the clutch is installed with a washer on a bolt. I put a thin coat of anti-seize compound on the crankshaft before installing the clutch.:cool:
I don't think they reduced the shaft diameter as it's still 1-1/8". I think they reduced the length and whether they cut it down or took up the extra length with spacers, SEW doesn't even know. They did know that it was a 4" crank originally and I didn't know they were offered 4" long. I thought 3" was a standard size.

Your 4018 repower turned out good! Nice sheetmetal work on the cowl extensions! The Onan pump coupler looks like a Vanguard coupler with two extra holes. If the bolt circles are the same and I didn't have to do anything special to the adapter, that would be amazing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
The only real question I have now is how long is the shaft on the 4023? I used the filter function while searching engines on SEW's site and they do offer the 23hp Vanguard with both a 3" or 4" crank and I determined the Onan repower kit has got to be using the 4" crank with spacers to achieve the 3-5/8" length they are advertising.

Do any of you guys running the C48490 clutch recall what your crank length was when you bought your engines? This will determine if I can get away with buying the kit with the 4" crank or if I need to buy the base engine and piece it together myself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #41 · (Edited)
Hi FastEddie,
Check out this link. The crankshaft length does not include the spacer. :cool:
This documentation is saying shaft length is measured from the engine flange mounting face to the end of the crank. The only length options for a 1-1/8" diameter crank according to the chart below are 3-1/4" (3" usable before the shoulder) and 4" so I'm still baffled how SEW is advertising 3-5/8" for shaft length on their Onan repower kit. Since it is longer than 3-1/4", it has to be a 4" model but they won't tell me if the shaft is cut down or they are factoring the spacers into their measurement.

Font Schematic Technical drawing Plan Engineering
Font Parallel Number Pattern Screenshot




Tip. If you have to shorten a shaft that is already drilled or at least spotted in the center, drill and tap to the needed finish depth BEFORE cutting off the excess. I'd do it on the mill or drill press to reduce the chance of error. However you choose to do it, the existing hole will help guide the drill and tap so you get it straight and on center.
I'm trying to avoid that scenario if I can help it by purchasing the correct engine. I don't want to buy a 3" shaft engine and find out it stops 3/4 of the way through the clutch or buy a 4" shaft engine and find out it will hang the clutch out an extra inch since I need this thing as compact as possible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #43 · (Edited)
On most clutch installations, the clutch extends past the end of the crankshaft sometimes up to 1/2".:cool:
I'm more worried about buying the 4" shaft model and having the shaft stick out past the clutch. I guess if I roll the dice and it sticks out I can make a bushing to go under the retainer washer to take up the extra distance.

I have my parts list together and getting ready to order the engine and parts. The price tag of this deal and not having an exact recipe for a successful swap makes me nervous.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Discussion Starter · #46 ·
I wouldn't worry too much, it is not hard to shorten a crank. It is not hardened or anything unworkable.
I'm sure it's not too difficult, I just don't want to mess around with it as this is a big enough undertaking as it is.

I think when I repowered my onan with a crate linamar engine the new shaft was only 3 3/8" long. 1/2" shorter than the original and I've not had any problems with the set up. When I put it together I also installed a new tg2000 clutch like what ing3018 posted here. I do have a new anti-rotation bracket for a 21/23 hp briggs that came with the kit that I will not use.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
I appreciate the info, another piece of the puzzle! I am interested in the anti-rotation bracket if you would like to sell it and don't mind shipping it.
 
1 - 20 of 53 Posts
Top