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Hi FastEddie and group,
Since Vanguard engines, (14,16 and 18 HP models) were first installed on Ingersoll tractors there have been 2 flywheel/cooling fan/blower housing changes on Vanguard engines. Initially the flywheel and fan was a one piece cast iron part with an aluminum starter ring gear and used a nylon gear on the starter motor. The blower housing on these engines had no ribs pressed into them.

During the mid 2000s, a thicker/heavier flywheel with a separate plastic fan and a steel starter ring gear was installed and this included a deeper blower housing with ribs pressed into the V areas. These engines had a support ring that held the plastic fan onto the flywheel. A steel gear was installed on the starter motor.

Later on probably late 2000s, another change was made to all 16, 18, 21 and 23 HP models. A thicker/heavier flywheel with a shield covering the magnets in the flywheel and a taller plastic fan was installed utilizing a different style support ring to hold the plastic fan in place. A steel ring gear with a different gear teeth configuration and a matching steel gear was installed on the starter motor. Along with these changes a deeper yet blower housing with ribs pressed into the V areas was added.
Each subsequent change to these engines increased the flywheel weight and increased the cooling air flow over the cylinders.

As we don't have parts manuals for the late production 4018, 4021, 4221, 4023 and 4223 models, we don't know what changes Ingersoll did to these tractors to connect the hydraulic pump to these engines.
We do know that the pump shaft and pump adapter on older Vanguard powered Ingersoll tractors will not connect to the newer Vanguard engines. We have been removing the flywheel, blower housing and starter motor from the old engine and using them on newer engines in order to connect the pump shaft and adapter to the flywheel. As the 21 and 23 HP Vanguards are taller than 16 and 18 HP Vanguards, Ingersoll had to raise the front of the hood and change the configuration of the upper heat shield. We also know that the muffler used on 16 and 18 HP engines is NLA. We also know that the muffler used on 21 and 23 HP engines is different from the 16 and 18 and also not available. These mufflers were produced by B&S for Ingersoll and now that Ingersoll is no longer in business, the production of these mufflers has stopped.

I have been installing new 18 HP Vanguards in 14, 16 and 18 HP engine powered Ingersoll 3000 and 4000 series tractors both originally Onan P series and Vanguard powered tractors. I have been buying conversion kits for the Onan powered tractors and base engines for the Vanguard powered tractors using the old flywheel, blower housing and starter motor.
New 16 and 18 Vanguards are in short supply and on back order with many distributers.

At this point, FastEddie is wondering what to do and I fully understand!!!!
There is a 23 HP Vanguard conversion kit available at Small Engine Warehouse that he could actually use but with some minor changes which I will get into for him in my next post!:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Thanks for sharing this info Mr. Bob!

The flywheel, fan, and housing revisions make sense after the issues they had with overheating heads and dropping valve guides. I'd like to figure out what Ingersoll did on the late production tractors to run the deep blower housings.

As we don't have parts manuals for the late production 4018, 4021, 4221, 4023 and 4223 models, we don't know what changes Ingersoll did to these tractors to connect the hydraulic pump to these engines.

We do know that the pump shaft and pump adapter on older Vanguard powered Ingersoll tractors will not connect to the newer Vanguard engines.
I spent a few hours last night looking for these parts manuals to no avail. How did they manage to produce these tractors without parts manuals?

At this point, FastEddie is wondering what to do and I fully understand!!!!
There is a 23 HP Vanguard conversion kit available at Small Engine Warehouse that he could actually use but with some minor changes which I will get into for him in my next post!:cool:
I'm trying to avoid using their conversion kit for Onan tractors because as I'd be paying for the Onan pump adapter and mount adapter plate that I won't be using. They show 70+ of the 23hp base engines in stock and I can go that route if I can nail down what clutch I need to use so I can pick the right crank diameter.

I have fab tools at my disposal to make heat shields and an exhaust system and full machine shop access to make spacers, modify the pump torque arm, or make a new pump adapter if needed. I'm motivated to make this thing happen.

You answered my big question on the blower housing so next is the clutch. The 23hp is longer so I will need the Onan 1-1/8" x 3" shaft clutch with the pulley towards the crankcase to offset the extra length? I'm referencing one of your older posts showing pictures of this clutch on an 18hp Vanguard.
 

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I'm back!
Part of the problem is that the pump shaft is not long enough to connect to the new Vanguards. The pump adapter would fit the flywheel and hold the plastic fan in place if the shaft was longer.
You could use the SEW 23 Vanguard kit that is setup to replace an Onan in a 4000 Ingersoll by replacing the Vanguard pump adapter on the pump shaft with an Onan Pump adapter and connected to the SEW manufactured installed on the engine in the kit. This will keep the pump in its original position but move the engine forward. As Vanguards are shorter in crankshaft length, the clutch pulley position will still be correct to drive the V belt for attachments. The crankshaft diameter and length on the 23 is the same as an Onan and you would need a new clutch. The kit has a relay so it can be connected to and Onan powered tractor key switch. This relay can be removed and the engine electrical harness will connect to the tractor electrical harness. The front of the hood will need to be raised up to be able to close over the Vanguard engine. The SEW kit has a muffler and heat shield as part of the kit. The SEW kit also has a support bracket on the bottom of the engine that will need to be removed as it is for an Onan powered Ingersoll which has a cut down frame where the engine sits and Vanguard frames don't.
I think at this time you are aware of why I install 18 HP Vanguards and swap the flywheels, blower housings, starter motors and use the same or direct replacement clutches from XtremeOPE!
As the flywheel and associated part changes by B&S are partly directed at increasing the cooling capacity and the 23 Vanguard has an engine oil cooler attached to the blower housing, the demand for more volume of cooling air flow is there.
B&S has done this same process on almost all their larger HP engines. I had to re-power my Scag Tiger Cub in 2012 from and old style B&S 24 vertical shaft to a 30 HP which had the higher volume cooling and an engine oil cooler. No problem with the taller engine as it is a vertical shaft engine with no hood over it. The engine oil cooler takes a lot of cooling air flow away from the engine and the reason for additional cooling air flow. An engine oil cooler is an option on horizontal 18 Vanguards and standard on 23s. :cool:
 

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An Ingersoll with power steering is different in that the pump shaft is 3/4" and non PS tractors have a 1/2" pump shaft.
This re-power is a sizable investment. All of the folks that I have don re-powers for have been briefed by me as to the cost and the only pay back is a relatively trouble free running machine with and engine warranty of 2 to 3 years providing OEM filters and recommended lube oil has been used and documented. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Thanks Bob, this is good stuff!

I can definitely see why you would prefer repowering with the lower horsepower engines and swapping parts for ease of use. I'm at a crossroads with reusing parts from my old engine. The muffler has been welded and saved several times, the blower housing is beat up from the previous owner, the flywheel is now junk, and there's more. I'm to the point now that I might as well start over and the 23hp engine doesn't cost much more than the 16hp or 18hp engines and it's more available.

If I need to machine a spacer to move the pump further out of the flywheel, I can machine a longer pilot button to make up the distance and center the pump shaft. Or I could machine the spacer with a pilot that centers the I.D. of the pump adapter and eliminate the pilot button. I don't know how much room I will have to play with at the clutch end after that but hopefully the Onan clutch will give a little leeway.
 

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Here is a link to B&S repower specs.
The reason why a horizontal 23 Vanguard is taller than an 18 is due to the 23 having a side draft 2 barrel carb fed from a single fuel bowl where the 18 has a single barrel downdraft carb.
V twins have a primary cylinder and a secondary cylinder by virtue of design. On higher HP models, the fuel metering is different between cylinders and the secondary cylinder doesn't need as rich of fuel mixture as the primary cylinder and the reason for the 2 barrel carb. I still have the new style flywheel, blower housing, fan and starter motor from the last re-power and I can take pics of these parts and post them here tomorrow. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Here is a link to B&S repower specs.
The reason why a horizontal 23 Vanguard is taller than an 18 is due to the 23 having a side draft 2 barrel carb fed from a single fuel bowl where the 18 has a single barrel downdraft carb.
V twins have a primary cylinder and a secondary cylinder by virtue of design. On higher HP models, the fuel metering is different between cylinders and the secondary cylinder doesn't need as rich of fuel mixture as the primary cylinder and the reason for the 2 barrel carb. I still have the new style flywheel, blower housing, fan and starter motor from the last re-power and I can take pics of these parts and post them here tomorrow. :cool:

Thanks for sharing the Repower Specs, I didn't know that document was available.

According to B&S, the 23hp is a little less than 1/2" taller and 1/4" longer than the 16-18hp. But that's also comparing the revised housings and their length measurements on the smaller engines is from the face of the crankcase to the face of the recoil starter which won't be used. The 21-23hp engines definitely have a deeper blower housing as the length measurement on those is from the face of the crankcase to face of the debris screen without a recoil starter.

I'm not too concerned about the height, I don't mind raising the hood if need be. I wish they gave measurements from the crankcase face to the flywheel face. Assuming the 23hp block itself is the same length as the other blocks, the only distance I have to account for if I machine a pump drive spacer is the face of the blower housing to the face of the flywheel and I'm guessing Ingersoll made that possible on the 4023 and other 23hp tractors by relocating the PTO pulley by using the Onan clutch.

Mr. Bob do you happen to know a part number for the XtremeOPE clutch with the inboard pulley?
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Bob, I think I will take your advice and consider SEW 23hp kit below. I figure the heat shields and muffler alone justify the price of the kit over the base engine.


The engine comes with the mount plate for an Onan application but the listing says this kit fits several Ingersoll tractors with Briggs engines. When they open, I'm going to call them and see what installation notes they have available as far as clutch recommendations and measurements for the flywheel pump drive adapter it comes with. If it has the same bolt centers, I can machine a pilot adapter to center my pump drive on it. It has a 1-1/8" x 3-5/8" crank with what appears to be a solid steel spacer and a brass washer that go behind the clutch and I don't know what the idea behind that is. The enigne in this kit is the only Briggs engine they list with that crank size.

I visited Xtreme's website and looked through all the Ingersoll clutches available and narrowed them down to a few that I think will work. What stinks about their site is that they list the crank diameter but not the shaft length.

I'll follow up when I get more info.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
So Small Engine Warehouse was not particularly helpful over the phone. The guy I spoke said he knows no details other than the kit is designed to replace an Onan in these tractors. I asked if he could send me the installation notes or find out the bolt circle of the flywheel adapter and he said they don't have that info in a PDF - it's all on paper and sent with the engine when purchased. So basically I need to purchase the engine to find out if it will work or not.

He did say that the 1-1/8" x 3-5/8" crank is either a sawed-off 4" long crank or the usable length is reduced with spacers but he was not sure which. The pictures do show spacers but they look like they take up more length than 3/8".

He also said that the lower horsepower Vanguards are in high demand, short supply, and unavailable indefinitely. The engines they currently have in stock are part of repower kits already and can't be sold separately.
 

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Most times that a shaft such as a crankshaft on an engine has a reduced size, the turning is radiused to avoid breakage at that spot. This is the reason that a double chamfered spacer needs to be installed onto the shaft. When an item like a clutch is installed onto a crankshaft, it would get bound onto the radiused area and be near to impossible to remove once it is tightened. The spacer goes on then the key is put in place, then the clutch is installed with a washer on a bolt. I put a thin coat of anti-seize compound on the crankshaft before installing the clutch.:cool:
 

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FastEddie,
Here are some pics of a new 4023 or 4223 that I took years ago at a local Ingersoll dealer. The clutch on this engine is a Warner 5215-42 which is C47447. Ingersoll has a replacement kit for this clutch which is C48626. When used on a 23 Vanguard, an anti-torque bracket is needed. This tractor was from the last production from Ingersoll when it was in Wisconsin so it is mid to late 2000 model year.
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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
FastEddie,
Here are some pics of a new 4023 or 4223 that I took years ago at a local Ingersoll dealer. The clutch on this engine is a Warner 5215-42 which is C47447. Ingersoll has a replacement kit for this clutch which is C48626. When used on a 23 Vanguard, an anti-torque bracket is needed. This tractor was from the last production from Ingersoll when it was in Wisconsin so it is mid to late 2000 model year.
Mr. Bob you are a legend! Thanks for sharing the pics! Thanks to you guys I feel like I'm not shooting in the dark anymore. The repower kit from SEW shows a smooth stud threaded into the face of the block and I'm assuming that is used in place of the anti-torque bracket. It's probably for the Onan clutch so I still have a little homework to do on that one.

I wonder why they needed a two-piece custom shroud. Ease of removal for cleaning so you don't have to pull the engine I assume? I have a cutoff wheel and a welder - I can do that :D The length of shroud on the 4223 appears to be the same length as the factory 23hp shroud when you reference how far the oil cooler extends past it.

Most times that a shaft such as a crankshaft on an engine has a reduced size, the turning is radiused to avoid breakage at that spot. This is the reason that a double chamfered spacer needs to be installed onto the shaft. When an item like a clutch is installed onto a crankshaft, it would get bound onto the radiused area and be near to impossible to remove once it is tightened. The spacer goes on then the key is put in place, then the clutch is installed with a washer on a bolt. I put a thin coat of anti-seize compound on the crankshaft before installing the clutch.:cool:
I don't think they reduced the shaft diameter as it's still 1-1/8". I think they reduced the length and whether they cut it down or took up the extra length with spacers, SEW doesn't even know. They did know that it was a 4" crank originally and I didn't know they were offered 4" long. I thought 3" was a standard size.

Your 4018 repower turned out good! Nice sheetmetal work on the cowl extensions! The Onan pump coupler looks like a Vanguard coupler with two extra holes. If the bolt circles are the same and I didn't have to do anything special to the adapter, that would be amazing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
The only real question I have now is how long is the shaft on the 4023? I used the filter function while searching engines on SEW's site and they do offer the 23hp Vanguard with both a 3" or 4" crank and I determined the Onan repower kit has got to be using the 4" crank with spacers to achieve the 3-5/8" length they are advertising.

Do any of you guys running the C48490 clutch recall what your crank length was when you bought your engines? This will determine if I can get away with buying the kit with the 4" crank or if I need to buy the base engine and piece it together myself.
 

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Tip. If you have to shorten a shaft that is already drilled or at least spotted in the center, drill and tap to the needed finish depth BEFORE cutting off the excess. I'd do it on the mill or drill press to reduce the chance of error. However you choose to do it, the existing hole will help guide the drill and tap so you get it straight and on center.
 
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