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Discussion Starter · #41 · (Edited)
Hi FastEddie,
Check out this link. The crankshaft length does not include the spacer. :cool:
This documentation is saying shaft length is measured from the engine flange mounting face to the end of the crank. The only length options for a 1-1/8" diameter crank according to the chart below are 3-1/4" (3" usable before the shoulder) and 4" so I'm still baffled how SEW is advertising 3-5/8" for shaft length on their Onan repower kit. Since it is longer than 3-1/4", it has to be a 4" model but they won't tell me if the shaft is cut down or they are factoring the spacers into their measurement.

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Tip. If you have to shorten a shaft that is already drilled or at least spotted in the center, drill and tap to the needed finish depth BEFORE cutting off the excess. I'd do it on the mill or drill press to reduce the chance of error. However you choose to do it, the existing hole will help guide the drill and tap so you get it straight and on center.
I'm trying to avoid that scenario if I can help it by purchasing the correct engine. I don't want to buy a 3" shaft engine and find out it stops 3/4 of the way through the clutch or buy a 4" shaft engine and find out it will hang the clutch out an extra inch since I need this thing as compact as possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 · (Edited)
On most clutch installations, the clutch extends past the end of the crankshaft sometimes up to 1/2".:cool:
I'm more worried about buying the 4" shaft model and having the shaft stick out past the clutch. I guess if I roll the dice and it sticks out I can make a bushing to go under the retainer washer to take up the extra distance.

I have my parts list together and getting ready to order the engine and parts. The price tag of this deal and not having an exact recipe for a successful swap makes me nervous.
 

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I think when I repowered my onan with a crate linamar engine the new shaft was only 3 3/8" long. 1/2" shorter than the original and I've not had any problems with the set up. When I put it together I also installed a new tg2000 clutch like what ing3018 posted here. I do have a new anti-rotation bracket for a 21/23 hp briggs that came with the kit that I will not use.

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I wouldn't worry too much, it is not hard to shorten a crank. It is not hardened or anything unworkable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
I wouldn't worry too much, it is not hard to shorten a crank. It is not hardened or anything unworkable.
I'm sure it's not too difficult, I just don't want to mess around with it as this is a big enough undertaking as it is.

I think when I repowered my onan with a crate linamar engine the new shaft was only 3 3/8" long. 1/2" shorter than the original and I've not had any problems with the set up. When I put it together I also installed a new tg2000 clutch like what ing3018 posted here. I do have a new anti-rotation bracket for a 21/23 hp briggs that came with the kit that I will not use.

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I appreciate the info, another piece of the puzzle! I am interested in the anti-rotation bracket if you would like to sell it and don't mind shipping it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
New revelations!

Per the drawing ing3018 shared, the mounting flange (that crank lengths are measured to) on the Onan is set back a ways from clutch compared to the Vanguard. The distance from the center vee of the pulley to the mounting flange on the Onan is 1.835" and the Vanguard is .854". This tells me the Onan shaft may stick out of the crankcase around 3" but the end of the crank to the mounting flange would be around 4". This confirms the SEW Onan repower kit is using a 4" crank and a spacer (visible in the picture on the website) behind the brass washer to get more flywheel-to-pulley length so everything lines up.

To confirm all of this, I called tech assistance at Xtreme OPE to see what details I could find about the C47447 equivalent clutch (#0153). A very friendly and helpful dude named Eric said that his prints don't show the inside sleeve length of the clutch but that the total stackup height of the clutch, as if laid down face first on a table, is 3.38".

Based on this, the 4" shaft Vanguard in the SEW kit would be too long and would protrude from the end of the clutch without a spacer. Looks like I'm buying the base engine with the 3" shaft and I'll just have to buy the muffler and flywheel adapter separately and modify them accordingly. I'm on the fence about buying this stuff from SEW though. I'm pretty irritated that they shrouded the repower kit in mystery and wouldn't give me this info or put me in touch with someone who could to assure me that I'm dropping nearly $1,700 plus freight on the correct engine.
 

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Hi FastEddie,
Allow me to clear up some of your concerns. All small engine manufacturers measure the overall crankshaft length on the PTO end from a standard point on the engine, usually the boss around the crankshaft seal. The reduced length of the shaft is always shorter but never specified. For example, the Onan P series engine, spec # 10904 shows the crankshaft length as 3.95", but the cut down length is less than 3.5" and accepts all recommended electric clutches. A spacer washer is always mandatory, the one usually found on these engines is the one that is .250" thick. There are other spacers available in .100" and .050". I have never seen any of the thinner ones on any engine that I have done service work on.
As for your concern with SEW, they make money with engine sales and not the individual parts of a re-power kit. After they have done the research and decided what will make the kit work, they have to outsource the crankshaft adaptors, the mufflers and heat shields as these parts are not produced in any quantity as there is very little demand for them in the small engine/compact tractor world. I know of some folks that have had mufflers fabricated and paid up to $400 for one muffler!:cool:
 

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As I always find other areas that need attention following an engine removal, I do this:
Drain the hydraulic system. Drain the fuel system. Remove the battery and hyd oil tank. This exposes this area for better inspection and servicing.
On 3000 and 4000 series tractors, I remove the hyd oil cooler, clean and inspect, remove the pump, clean and inspect. I usually replace all the low pressure hoses and most times the pump high pressure output hose. There are nipples on the bottom of the oil tank that can get distorted from heat. There are steel sleeves available that can be pushed into the plastic nipples for added support.
The steering shaft lower bushing and travel lever lower bushing can easily be replaced at this time if needed. The travel lever lower bushing was originally made of nylon and wears in an oval. The replacement for this bushing is a bronze bushing. I almost always replace this bushing which reduces the slop in the travel lever action. I drop the steering sector gear down, clean and inspect and if worn, replace it and do a steering system adjustment. The engagement of the sector gear to the small gear on the steering shaft is adjustable. While in this area, I inspect the electrical wiring and usually find the connectors on the rear of the key switch and PTO switch to have corrosion. I cut the plastic connector off the key switch harness and crimp on spade connectors. Many times I have to replace both the key switch and PTO switch. While I'm at it, I remove the seat, rear fenders and fuel tank, clean, inspect and replace the fuel hose. I leave the hose longer so I can run it under the frame leaving enough slack in the hose for future servicing. Many times I need to do repairs to the fitting on the bottom of the fuel tank or replace it. Sometimes the female thread on the bottom of the tank is split. I have a repair that I do to these tanks.
All these areas addressed, I reinstall the engine after cleaning and inspecting it. Most engines need to be cleaned and decarbed. A new engine doesn't.
If you are serious about a re-power with a 23 Vanguard, let me know andI will talk you thru it!:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Hi FastEddie,
Allow me to clear up some of your concerns. All small engine manufacturers measure the overall crankshaft length on the PTO end from a standard point on the engine, usually the boss around the crankshaft seal. The reduced length of the shaft is always shorter but never specified. For example, the Onan P series engine, spec # 10904 shows the crankshaft length as 3.95", but the cut down length is less than 3.5" and accepts all recommended electric clutches. A spacer washer is always mandatory, the one usually found on these engines is the one that is .250" thick. There are other spacers available in .100" and .050". I have never seen any of the thinner ones on any engine that I have done service work on.
Thanks for the reply Mr. Bob. I'm not referring to them using a washer against the radiused shoulder in the crank. I'm referring to the large steel bushing behind the washer in the pic below taken from their kit engine.

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They advertise this as a 3-5/8" crank but Briggs only sells these engines with either a 3" or a 4" long crank in the 1-1/8" diameter. If they cut the crank down to 3-5/8", why would they need this bushing behind the washer? The C47447 clutch used on the Onan tractors and 23hp Vanguard tractors don't have this bushing - the clutch butts right up the washer in both applications. This is why I'm drawing the conclusion that they are using a 4" crank but throwing out the arbitrary "3-5/8" length" number to show compatibility with the Onan, even though the crank is not actually 3-5/8".

As for your concern with SEW, they make money with engine sales and not the individual parts of a re-power kit. After they have done the research and decided what will make the kit work, they have to outsource the crankshaft adaptors, the mufflers and heat shields as these parts are not produced in any quantity as there is very little demand for them in the small engine/compact tractor world. I know of some folks that have had mufflers fabricated and paid up to $400 for one muffler!:cool:
When I called them, I told them I had every intention of buying the kit but since I'm deviating a little from their intended purpose of repowering an Onan tractor, I wanted to make sure the crank length would work with my Vanguard application before I bought it. He said it was a 4" crank engine for sure but didn't know if it was cut down or not. No prints, no suggestions, no "let me ask someone that would know", nothing. When they run out of engine kits they absolutely do have prints to build more and the fact that they were unwilling to even try to find out for me as though it's proprietary information is just plain crap customer service.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
As I always find other areas that need attention following an engine removal, I do this:
Drain the hydraulic system. Drain the fuel system. Remove the battery and hyd oil tank. This exposes this area for better inspection and servicing.
On 3000 and 4000 series tractors, I remove the hyd oil cooler, clean and inspect, remove the pump, clean and inspect. I usually replace all the low pressure hoses and most times the pump high pressure output hose. There are nipples on the bottom of the oil tank that can get distorted from heat. There are steel sleeves available that can be pushed into the plastic nipples for added support.
The steering shaft lower bushing and travel lever lower bushing can easily be replaced at this time if needed. The travel lever lower bushing was originally made of nylon and wears in an oval. The replacement for this bushing is a bronze bushing. I almost always replace this bushing which reduces the slop in the travel lever action. I drop the steering sector gear down, clean and inspect and if worn, replace it and do a steering system adjustment. The engagement of the sector gear to the small gear on the steering shaft is adjustable. While in this area, I inspect the electrical wiring and usually find the connectors on the rear of the key switch and PTO switch to have corrosion. I cut the plastic connector off the key switch harness and crimp on spade connectors. Many times I have to replace both the key switch and PTO switch. While I'm at it, I remove the seat, rear fenders and fuel tank, clean, inspect and replace the fuel hose. I leave the hose longer so I can run it under the frame leaving enough slack in the hose for future servicing. Many times I need to do repairs to the fitting on the bottom of the fuel tank or replace it. Sometimes the female thread on the bottom of the tank is split. I have a repair that I do to these tanks.
All these areas addressed, I reinstall the engine after cleaning and inspecting it. Most engines need to be cleaned and decarbed. A new engine doesn't.
If you are serious about a re-power with a 23 Vanguard, let me know andI will talk you thru it!:cool:
Thanks for the tips! I actually just had the engine out of tractor less than a year ago and I followed one of your threads detailing all the maintenance items you complete with the engine out. I put a new steering sector gear on, bored and bushed the front axle with the solid pin upgrade, did the poor man's power steering upgrade, changed some hoses, did the spherical control rod ends on the travel valve, and some other maintenance items.

I'm definitely on my way to repowering with the 23hp Vanguard. I ordered the anti-rotation arm, clutch washer, clutch retainer, and the C47447 clutch. I'm going to double-check the sleeve length of the clutch as a precaution before I order the engine, which is why I'm so concerned about the crank length. My goal is to pull off this repower without swapping the flywheel and blower housing and I'm hoping the backwards C47447 clutch will give me enough space to pull the engine forward in the frame to use a flywheel adapter.
 

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Hi FastEddie,
A few more comments:
Behind what you are calling a brass washer is not a steel bushing, it is the crankshaft. The area from the rear of the 'brass washer' is turned down to a specific diameter and length for clutch or coupling installations.
The 'brass washer' is a steel double chamfered spacer plated with gold colored cadmium.
All or the vast majority of electric clutch/brakes are directionally sensitive. The direction of a clutch is as you look at the pulley side. The clutch on your 16 Vanguard is CCW as the pulley is away from the engine. In the situation of your possible re-power with a 23 Vanguard, the clutch is CW as the pulley is close to the engine. The only position for a C47447 clutch is backwards or pulley close to the engine as it is a CW rotation clutch.:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 · (Edited)
Hi FastEddie,
A few more comments:
Behind what you are calling a brass washer is not a steel bushing, it is the crankshaft. The area from the rear of the 'brass washer' is turned down to a specific diameter and length for clutch or coupling installations.
The 'brass washer' is a steel double chamfered spacer plated with gold colored cadmium.
All or the vast majority of electric clutch/brakes are directionally sensitive. The direction of a clutch is as you look at the pulley side. The clutch on your 16 Vanguard is CCW as the pulley is away from the engine. In the situation of your possible re-power with a 23 Vanguard, the clutch is CW as the pulley is close to the engine. The only position for a C47447 clutch is backwards or pulley close to the engine as it is a CW rotation clutch.:cool:
That's some bright cad plating! :D My bad on that!

According to the print on this engine as shown below, that is not the crankshaft behind the washer in the last pic I sent unless I'm looking at it wrong. They show 3.996" (~4.0") for the OAL with 3.85" from the end of the crank to the radius leaving the area between the radius and the seal to be .146" long. The 1.26" diameter figure appears to be the diameter of the crank after the radius. Referring to the last pic I sent, the area in question behind the washer is both longer and greater in diameter than .146" L x 1.26" dia. If you use the washer as a reference for .25" (assuming it is actually .25" thick), this area is over 1" long which is why I believe it's a solid bushing or spacer.

Rectangle Font Schematic Parallel Slope


That's my reasoning for the CW clutch - locate the pulley closer to the engine to allow the engine to come forward in the frame and make space for a flywheel adapter to the pump coupler. It should give me roughly 3" or so to play with while maintaining the correct belt alignment.
 

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Hi FastEddie,
Looking at the pic of the shaft with a magnifying glass, it does appear to be a steel spacer with a brass washer being held in place with black tape. I don't see the lip of the crank seal.
The surface of the spacer isn't polished or smooth enough for a seal to ride on. These parts may very well be part of the kit.
As the aluminum spacer on the flywheel is machined to fit an Onan pump drive adaptor, you will need one to put onto the pump shaft in place of the Briggs pump drive adaptor. As the Onan pump adaptor centers onto the aluminum spacer, this will keep the correct centered alignment for the pump. The bore of the Onan pump drive adaptor will allow you some forward or aft movement on the pump shaft to better align the engine for clutch pulley/V belt alignment to the mower mule drive pulleys. This will place the engine forward on the tractor frame from the original engine. The hood will need to be raised up at the hinge and a hole will need to be cut in the R/H side of the hood for the tailpipe on the muffler. In the pics that I have of 4023, 4223 model tractors, there is a hole cut in the side of the hood for the tailpipe. This is just like the older Onan powered 3000 and 4000 series tractors. I recommend that the heat shield in the hood be shortened so that it overlaps the top piece of the muffler heat shield when the hood is closed. This will give added heat protection for the head lights. You should be able to reuse the choke and throttle cables providing they are still serviceable. You may need to drill new holes in the frame for the engine mounting bolts. As for clutches, there is GEN3, Extremeope, Warner and Ingersoll by Warner. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Hi FastEddie,
Looking at the pic of the shaft with a magnifying glass, it does appear to be a steel spacer with a brass washer being held in place with black tape. I don't see the lip of the crank seal.
The surface of the spacer isn't polished or smooth enough for a seal to ride on. These parts may very well be part of the kit.
As the aluminum spacer on the flywheel is machined to fit an Onan pump drive adaptor, you will need one to put onto the pump shaft in place of the Briggs pump drive adaptor. As the Onan pump adaptor centers onto the aluminum spacer, this will keep the correct centered alignment for the pump. The bore of the Onan pump drive adaptor will allow you some forward or aft movement on the pump shaft to better align the engine for clutch pulley/V belt alignment to the mower mule drive pulleys. This will place the engine forward on the tractor frame from the original engine. The hood will need to be raised up at the hinge and a hole will need to be cut in the R/H side of the hood for the tailpipe on the muffler. In the pics that I have of 4023, 4223 model tractors, there is a hole cut in the side of the hood for the tailpipe. This is just like the older Onan powered 3000 and 4000 series tractors. I recommend that the heat shield in the hood be shortened so that it overlaps the top piece of the muffler heat shield when the hood is closed. This will give added heat protection for the head lights. You should be able to reuse the choke and throttle cables providing they are still serviceable. You may need to drill new holes in the frame for the engine mounting bolts. As for clutches, there is GEN3, Extremeope, Warner and Ingersoll by Warner. :cool:
That makes me feel better Bob, I was starting to wonder if I was crazy. When the clutch arrives (should be today) I'm going to measure it and see if the 4" crank will protrude from the clutch or not. This will determine if I buy the repower kit (4" crank) or the base engine (3" crank) since I need the clutch right up against the crankcase without a spacer behind it as the 4023 is configured.

If I buy the base engine, I will buy the same muffler and modify the outlet to avoid cutting my hood and fab my own heat shields. As you stated the flywheel adapter in the repower kit will not work with my Vanguard pump coupler. Depending on how thick of an adapter I need once the clutch pulley is aligned, I will either buy one from SEW and modify it or purchase one from Home - Performance V-Twins - Horizontal & Vertical V Twin Engines and machine it with a 1-3/4" pilot and 2-7/8" bolt circle for the pump coupler. I think machining a stepped pilot into the adapter will make install a lot easier than trying to center the pump shaft in that little crank button.

These guys have a pretty trick flywheel adapter that has a pattern milled into the flywheel contact side that fits through the pattern in the cooling fan and takes the place of the original retaining ring. They sell them undrilled/blank and a few other configurations as well.

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Discussion Starter · #56 · (Edited)
The clutch came today and I measured the sleeve length at exactly 3" between the outside of the bearings. Looks like the base engine with the 3" crank is the one.

Despite the lousy customer service I recently experienced, I'm off to SEW's site with debit card in hand to give them another shot.
 

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My hat's off to you for going through all this to repower, although at the same time it makes me glad I just rebuilt my Onan.
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
My hat's off to you for going through all this to repower, although at the same time it makes me glad I just rebuilt my Onan.
For sure, you should be glad that you had an engine worth rebuilding because that's half the battle.

Repowering is my only option because for one, I don't have time to screw around with a rebuild right now. Two, if you've rebuilt an Onan, I'm sure you know how expensive and difficult rebuild parts are to find. Three, there's not many good parts left on the original engine and I know when to start over. The muffler is junk, flywheel is junk, the previous owner stripped all the bolt holes in the block for the tin and cobbled up a dozen other things.

If I'm dropping money, I'm dropping it on a modern, updated, popular engine with 7hp more than the original that should have many years of parts availability left. The price tag is a real ball bruiser but in the end it's still $8-10k cheaper than a quality zero-turn. The work required to make the new engine fit in the tractor is less intimidating than the cost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
SEW order submitted last night. Here's how this project is hitting the piggy bank so far and includes tax and shipping.

$319 - Clutch
$90 - Clutch anti-rotation bracket, clutch washer, clutch retainer cup
$1825 - Engine, muffler, flywheel adapter, exhaust manifold gaskets

I don't expect to purchase anything but hardware and misc materials from this point on.
 
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