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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A few random pics of steering upgrades


The result of runnin er dry 2 oclock, and 8 oclock positions tell the story.

Why did they NOT use oilite bronze bushings, OR install a grease fittin,..??? I dunno Iam replacin with oilite bronze, and a grease fittin




kubotakid :usa2:
 

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Nice work Eric! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: You are some machinist :thumbsup: I have been playing around with the steering on my 1986 446, but nothing like your doing. Seems to have suddenly gotten tighter in the last few months.
:222: :446: Best Regards, Rich
 

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KK,
Is your tractor 5 years old or is it 25 years old?

Is it not fair to say that engineers have to consider several factors when designing tractor components?


- the strength of the component

- the durability of the component

- the end cost of the component

would seem important to the President of the company that employs him or her.


In this instance, the steering shaft, gear and lower brace have proven to be both strong and durable while keeping the manufacturing cost down. Did you not just say to me that Ingersoll tractors are over priced? And yet, here you are complaining that they did not add a grease fitting and an oilite bushing, both of which would have increased the manufacturing cost and the assembly cost and added another part that would need to be stocked and inventoried.

In another thread, you produced a lift arm with a telescopic spring-loaded feature that would also be costly to make compared to the one chosen by the factory. Once again, you are doing things that would jack up the tractor price even more than it was. I certainly admire your ingenuity and your skills in the fabrication and machining side of things but realistically speaking, you could literally go through your tractor from end to end, redesigning and improving existing parts to the point where the ten grand Ingersoll you are complaining about would have to cost twenty grand.

In a nutshell KK, you can't have it both ways. Parts do wear out. To date, no one has ever complained about a lift arm being inadequate nor have I seen complaints about premature failure of steering shafts or the pinion gears. To be fair, I have seen complaints about the stamped steel quadrant gears and the aluminum mandrels on mowing decks but guess what? Ingersoll went back to cast iron on both. Problem solved.

Don't get me wrong. I love what you do and I enjoy your threads. Criticism is often a good thing but in this instance.... I have to disagree because time has proven the steering system to be amazingly bulletproof.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hydriv said:
KK,
Is your tractor 5 years old or is it 25 years old?

Is it not fair to say that engineers have to consider several factors when designing tractor components?

- the strength of the component

- the durability of the component

- the end cost of the component

would seem important to the President of the company that employs him or her.

In this instance, the steering shaft, gear and lower brace have proven to be both strong and durable while keeping the manufacturing cost down. Did you not just say to me that Ingersoll tractors are over priced? And yet, here you are complaining that they did not add a grease fitting and an oilite bushing, both of which would have increased the manufacturing cost and the assembly cost and added another part that would need to be stocked and inventoried.

In another thread, you produced a lift arm with a telescopic spring-loaded feature that would also be costly to make compared to the one chosen by the factory. Once again, you are doing things that would jack up the tractor price even more than it was. I certainly admire your ingenuity and your skills in the fabrication and machining side of things but realistically speaking, you could literally go through your tractor from end to end, redesigning and improving existing parts to the point where the ten grand Ingersoll you are complaining about would have to cost twenty grand.

In a nutshell KK, you can't have it both ways. Parts do wear out. To date, no one has ever complained about a lift arm being inadequate nor have I seen complaints about premature failure of steering shafts or the pinion gears. To be fair, I have seen complaints about the stamped steel quadrant gears and the aluminum mandrels on mowing decks but guess what? Ingersoll went back to cast iron on both. Problem solved.

Don't get me wrong. I love what you do and I enjoy your threads. Criticism is often a good thing but in this instance.... I have to disagree because time has proven the steering system to be amazingly bulletproof.
HD,
In my "Private Message" I sent to you, I waz not complaining about anything..I said Quote: That $9600.00 :usa2: dollors waz stupid money for a gas powered 2wd..

My tractor is class of 88, 2498.8 hrs on the clock. Runs like new, and burns no oil, orignal engine parts.
Why would I NOT upgrade my steering? :headscratcher: I have a machine shop,..No special tooling was required for this operation.. Besides that my tractor was pleading for lube.

Are you not considering the fact that the shaft will turn easier riding on a film of molly,..Instead of dry gulling steel? :think:

You said I needed to keep in mind that the additional cost of this upgrade waz gona effect the price tag...
Heres your numbers} Oilite bushing from McMaster Carr. pt# 6338k425. 1 of pricing} $1.11 Thats One dollor and eleven pennys...
Ill betcha that you wont find a steel bushing for less...

Ok,. lets say that the steel bushings were free :sidelaugh: .. The total cost of this upgrade would be about a buck..Probably more like 75 cents with a volume discount..

I would make quick work of the extra inventory problem by tossing all the steel bushings in a scrap bucket , and reload that bin with oilite bushing.

In my original post I stated: Why didnt they use oilite bushings?.. Or a grease fittin? Meaning the should have dun one or the other,..
You miss read me,,,I wasnt complaining...I waz criticizeing the case/ingersoll engineers for running a "dry" joint in {THEE MOST CRITICAL} point of the steering :rockon:

Even a dumb ol farm boy like me knows,.. thats a {piss poor excuse} for mechinical engineering..
Iam still bettin ya,, they spent more money screwing up, Using the steel bushing, then they would have spent doing it right with oilite..

As far as my lift link with the built in shock absorber, Its not for everybody, Only those concerned with keeping the belly cylinder intact and functioning properly.. It only....
takes the shock loads out of the circut to prevent premature joint wear and all the slop that comes with that, resulting in cylinder tear outs, cylinder mount falures, and the ocasional frame tearout.

Oh yea,.. it also allows you 1.1/2" adjustment in travel parameters so you can dial in you grading capibalites. plus the tierod ends boast a 400% increase in bearing area. Plus if your grand kids get to fellin a little slop in the link they can easly replace the ends from many online web sites.

Tom, Iam doing these things to keep my beloved 446 in tip top tight condition, Your protest suprises me but.. Ill gona keep doin my thing..
Sorry,. but thats how we do it here at my shop. UP Grades are what drivs me, Especially when I can save money on maintence,..And enjoy a tite ride along the way

OH,. that steering shaft you dont approve of has been deamed obsolete, And, Iam pissed because it hasent even been installed yet. Ill post the new version later.

Theres,..One thing that I forgot to tell you,.. I dont belive you when you tell me that theres no room for improvement in the case /inge steering. And,. Iam the only one that thinks so

kubotakid :usa2:
 

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Nice work kid. Doesn't seem like it would take that much to implement that mod. It seems that with any manufacturing process there will always be some detail that someone will feel was overlooked. Happens whenever I work on something. But its also hard for an outside perspective to know the detail wasn't considered or planned for either. You are doing tasteful improvements that should make the CCI tractors last even longer. We just need to check back in 25 years to see if there is anything on your designs that could be improved. :thumbup: Keep up the good work and sharing your ideas. You could offer all your services pro bono to other case owners to keep the original price the same for us. :lol:
 

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I like your idea of the LIFT LINK , I'm going to fab one for the top link on the 3 point hitch and use one on the front as well for the blade. I don't use a plow or tiller but I'm going to fab a box scraper/ ripper and I think the spring loaded LINK will be beneficial.

have a good one ---oldfrank--- :canada:
 

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kubotakid said:
Hydriv said:
KK,
Is your tractor 5 years old or is it 25 years old?

Is it not fair to say that engineers have to consider several factors when designing tractor components?

- the strength of the component

- the durability of the component

- the end cost of the component

would seem important to the President of the company that employs him or her.

In this instance, the steering shaft, gear and lower brace have proven to be both strong and durable while keeping the manufacturing cost down. Did you not just say to me that Ingersoll tractors are over priced? And yet, here you are complaining that they did not add a grease fitting and an oilite bushing, both of which would have increased the manufacturing cost and the assembly cost and added another part that would need to be stocked and inventoried.

In another thread, you produced a lift arm with a telescopic spring-loaded feature that would also be costly to make compared to the one chosen by the factory. Once again, you are doing things that would jack up the tractor price even more than it was. I certainly admire your ingenuity and your skills in the fabrication and machining side of things but realistically speaking, you could literally go through your tractor from end to end, redesigning and improving existing parts to the point where the ten grand Ingersoll you are complaining about would have to cost twenty grand.

In a nutshell KK, you can't have it both ways. Parts do wear out. To date, no one has ever complained about a lift arm being inadequate nor have I seen complaints about premature failure of steering shafts or the pinion gears. To be fair, I have seen complaints about the stamped steel quadrant gears and the aluminum mandrels on mowing decks but guess what? Ingersoll went back to cast iron on both. Problem solved.

Don't get me wrong. I love what you do and I enjoy your threads. Criticism is often a good thing but in this instance.... I have to disagree because time has proven the steering system to be amazingly bulletproof.
KK, it seems as though you miss many of the points I was trying to make.

HD,
In my "Private Message" I sent to you, I waz not complaining about anything..I said Quote: That $9600.00 :usa2: dollors waz stupid money for a gas powered 2wd..

If you feel that $9600.00 for a loaded 4223PS GT is "stupid money", then that is something that I view as a complaint. If you were happy with that price, then you would not say that the asking price is stupid. Not all homeowners want or even need diesel engines, 4 wheel drive or all-wheel steering. Many could care less about a cup holder. Whether we are talking about a Colt, Case or Ingersoll tractor, the price has always been high but you have to factor inflation in order to come to that conclusion. A dollar back in 1965 bought you a lot more than a dollar will today. The dollar of today is more like the dime in 1965. Therefore, if you move the decimal point in that price, one position to the left, it becomes $960.00 and that's right in the ballpark of what a nice, new Colt Rancher or Case 180 cost in 1965. It's a good thing that people didn't feel that number to be stupid money back then or both lines of tractors would have been dropped by Case before 1969 rolled around.

My tractor is class of 88, 2498.8 hrs on the clock. Runs like new, and burns no oil, orignal engine parts.
Why would I NOT upgrade my steering? :headscratcher: I have a machine shop,..No special tooling was required for this operation.. Besides that my tractor was pleading for lube.

Are you not considering the fact that the shaft will turn easier riding on a film of molly,..Instead of dry gulling steel? :think:

I have no quarrel with you making these "upgrades". As you say, you have a machine shop and the skills to do so. Bravo. I wish I had the same. But like many members of this forum, I do not. Therefore I view this "upgrade" quite differently. For me the questions are. "Is it really necessary?" and "How much will a machine shop charge me?" and "Will this make a dynamic difference to the steering of my tractor?"

In my opinion, it isn't necessary, it will cost me too much and the cost vs benefits factor cannot be justified. As I said before, this alleged shortfall by the Case engineers has never come up on any forum I have been a member of since 2004. There is no question that you are making an improvement and extending the life of the steering shaft in the process. However, you are on a public forum with over 1600 members. What gets talked about in this thread will end up in the archives of the site. Members that join in the future MAY come across this thread when searching the archives and form the conclusion that this galling is a major problem, when it is not. There are far more compelling issues when it comes to hard steering then the one you are working on and the only way those members will understand that, is if someone on this forum challenges you. That's my job. It's what I did on MTF and on the Yahoo site.


You said I needed to keep in mind that the additional cost of this upgrade waz gona effect the price tag...
Heres your numbers} Oilite bushing from McMaster Carr. pt# 6338k425. 1 of pricing} $1.11 Thats One dollor and eleven pennys...
Ill betcha that you wont find a steel bushing for less...

Ok,. lets say that the steel bushings were free :sidelaugh: .. The total cost of this upgrade would be about a buck..Probably more like 75 cents with a volume discount..

I would make quick work of the extra inventory problem by tossing all the steel bushings in a scrap bucket , and reload that bin with oilite bushing.

You are ignoring the fact that there are machining costs involved, assembly costs involved, inventory costs involved, overhead costs involved, tooling costs and who knows what else. Once these costs are added to the basic cost of the finished product, then the factory owner marks up the price of the tractor and then ships it to the regional distributor who marks it up again before delivering it to the local dealer who marks it up again before selling it to the consumer.

In my original post I stated: Why didnt they use oilite bushings?.. Or a grease fittin? Meaning the should have dun one or the other,..
You miss read me,,,I wasnt complaining...I waz criticizeing the case/ingersoll engineers for running a "dry" joint in {THEE MOST CRITICAL} point of the steering :rockon:

The engineers were pretty good at putting zerks on these tractors where they are truly needed. Obviously they looked at that area and felt one was not needed due to the few turns lock to lock of the steering system. In my opinion, time has proven their decision to be correct due to the lack of complaints about that area of the steering.

Even a dumb ol farm boy like me knows,.. thats a {piss poor excuse} for mechinical engineering..
Iam still bettin ya,, they spent more money screwing up, Using the steel bushing, then they would have spent doing it right with oilite..

Once again, that would be your opinion and you are certainly entitled and welcome to express it on this forum. But as I have already indicated, the absence of complaint about this issue in the 200,000 posts I have read, tells me a different story.

As far as my lift link with the built in shock absorber, Its not for everybody, Only those concerned with keeping the belly cylinder intact and functioning properly.. It only....
takes the shock loads out of the circut to prevent premature joint wear and all the slop that comes with that, resulting in cylinder tear outs, cylinder mount falures, and the ocasional frame tearout.

Ask anyone who really knows these tractors and they will tell you that the damage you speak of is uncommon and when it does happen, the reason is .....someone let an "animal" use the tractor.

Oh yea,.. it also allows you 1.1/2" adjustment in travel parameters so you can dial in you grading capibalites. plus the tierod ends boast a 400% increase in bearing area. Plus if your grand kids get to fellin a little slop in the link they can easly replace the ends from many online web sites.

There is a limited amount of grading that can be done with what is essentially a 2-way blade. You would need a 6-way blade and it would have to be a lot heavier in weight than the OEM one is for it to be useful. A good quality box blade mounted to a 3 point hitch will run circles around this "push blade".

Tom, Iam doing these things to keep my beloved 446 in tip top tight condition, Your protest suprises me but.. Ill gona keep doin my thing..
Sorry,. but thats how we do it here at my shop. UP Grades are what drivs me, Especially when I can save money on maintence,..And enjoy a tite ride along the way

As I said, carry on with whatever you wish to do. That is your right and I don't interfere with individual rights. You brought this forward and now I'm discussing the merits of it in the context of my own personal exposure to these tractors. It's what we do here. We discuss issues.

OH,. that steering shaft you dont approve of has been deamed obsolete, And, Iam pissed because it hasent even been installed yet. Ill post the new version later.

Theres,..One thing that I forgot to tell you,.. I dont belive you when you tell me that theres no room for improvement in the case /inge steering. And,. Iam the only one that thinks so

kubotakid :usa2:
Please don't twist my words. I have never made a blanket statement that there is no improvement needed for the tractors. Nothing is perfect, including me. The fact remains that thousands upon thousands of customers bought these tractors over the past 47 years. Until recently, there was no such thing as a power steering option on the GT's and yet, owners kept coming back to the dealers and trading in there old tractor for a new one. If steering was a problem, then why did they keep buying newer tractors that had the same steering system? And if there was a howl from the owners and dealers about steering, then why are they still using the same components in 2012? That's why I have to say that you are trying to solve what is essentially a non-existent problem. Sorry if this offends your sensibilities but the facts support my position.
 

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oldfrank said:
I like your idea of the LIFT LINK , I'm going to fab one for the top link on the 3 point hitch and use one on the front as well for the blade. I don't use a plow or tiller but I'm going to fab a box scraper/ ripper and I think the spring loaded LINK will be beneficial.

have a good one ---oldfrank--- :canada:
By all means, go ahead and do so. I look forward to hearing your report on how well it worked out for you.

However, you might want to investigate and then answer the following questions.

1. Try and find a single brand of ag tractor that uses a three point hitch with a spring-loaded top link.

2. Try and find a single brand of bulldozer blade that employs a spring in its LIFT arm.

I look forward to the results of your search. :trink:
 

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Kid, I'm a 4th generation farm boy but since I sold the dairy herd a few years back I went full time into working at a machining/fab shop and I have always had a lathe in my garage. When I restore my antique CASE farm tractors there are parts you cant just go out and buy so sometimes you get out the creative licence and redesign something. Most people never notice. Some stand there scratching their heads trying to figure out how I did what I did. Some of my farm tractors are pushing 80-90 years old. As for the spring loaded top link thats a bad idea. People dont realize how much abuse that top link takes. I would highly suggest you going with a valved cylinder. These have been on the market for some time in the ag world and they are a hydraulic cylinder that replaces a top link and it has a valve on it that can be adjusted to the load. It's basically a giant shock absorber filled with hydraulic oil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
InTroubleAlltheTime said:
Nice work Eric! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: You are some machinist :thumbsup: I have been playing around with the steering on my 1986 446, but nothing like your doing. Seems to have suddenly gotten tighter in the last few months.
:222: :446: Best Regards, Rich
Thanks Rich,
If it wernt for drilling and the tapping in the weld its a very simple process. Iam going to sell this shaft, and build a new one, I should have the parts wed, Ill post after machining is done.

kubotakid :usa2:
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
bbob said:
Nice work kid. Doesn't seem like it would take that much to implement that mod. It seems that with any manufacturing process there will always be some detail that someone will feel was overlooked. Happens whenever I work on something. But its also hard for an outside perspective to know the detail wasn't considered or planned for either. You are doing tasteful improvements that should make the CCI tractors last even longer. We just need to check back in 25 years to see if there is anything on your designs that could be improved. :thumbup: Keep up the good work and sharing your ideas. You could offer all your services pro bono to other case owners to keep the original price the same for us. :lol:
Thanks Bob,
Ive built tens of thousands of parts and whole goods out of my shop. I have an old acme screw machine that will spit out a part in about 20 seconds, Depending on what you set it up for. So I know a thing or two about processing raw material into a finished part. And parts into whole goods. I gotta tell yea I really miss the good ole made in the USA days. Its depressing, and kinda scarry that its hard to find anything made here any more.

kubotakid :usa2:
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
oldfrank said:
I like your idea of the LIFT LINK , I'm going to fab one for the top link on the 3 point hitch and use one on the front as well for the blade. I don't use a plow or tiller but I'm going to fab a box scraper/ ripper and I think the spring loaded LINK will be beneficial.

have a good one ---oldfrank--- :canada:
Thanks Frank,
I call it a lift link, but It pushes to do the lifting, I dont think it would work good for a 3pt top link. I designed it to absorb the shock between the blade and the lift cylinder.

kubotakid :usa2:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
1031d said:
Kid, I'm a 4th generation farm boy but since I sold the dairy herd a few years back I went full time into working at a machining/fab shop and I have always had a lathe in my garage. When I restore my antique CASE farm tractors there are parts you cant just go out and buy so sometimes you get out the creative licence and redesign something. Most people never notice. Some stand there scratching their heads trying to figure out how I did what I did. Some of my farm tractors are pushing 80-90 years old. As for the spring loaded top link thats a bad idea. People dont realize how much abuse that top link takes. I would highly suggest you going with a valved cylinder. These have been on the market for some time in the ag world and they are a hydraulic cylinder that replaces a top link and it has a valve on it that can be adjusted to the load. It's basically a giant shock absorber filled with hydraulic oil.
1031d,
No worries, I didnt design it for a top link application. No question it wont work there. I have built the hydraulic top links, for catigory 2 3pts. Its very handy, so is the tilt feature.

kubotakid :usa2:
 

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FWIW,

I did have an issue with the pinion on my 3012. Half a tooth was missing (like that when I bought it). I picked up the new shaft/pinion from my local Ingy dealer for about 40 clams. Unfortunately, the shaft was too short even though it was the correct p/n. Had to add a section on the top. Also, it's a PITA to get that shaft out. Anywho, I am only one example of this, so I doubt there are many instances.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Hydriv said:
kubotakid said:
Hydriv said:
KK,
Is your tractor 5 years old or is it 25 years old?

Is it not fair to say that engineers have to consider several factors when designing tractor components?

- the strength of the component

- the durability of the component

- the end cost of the component

would seem important to the President of the company that employs him or her.

In this instance, the steering shaft, gear and lower brace have proven to be both strong and durable while keeping the manufacturing cost down. Did you not just say to me that Ingersoll tractors are over priced? And yet, here you are complaining that they did not add a grease fitting and an oilite bushing, both of which would have increased the manufacturing cost and the assembly cost and added another part that would need to be stocked and inventoried.

In another thread, you produced a lift arm with a telescopic spring-loaded feature that would also be costly to make compared to the one chosen by the factory. Once again, you are doing things that would jack up the tractor price even more than it was. I certainly admire your ingenuity and your skills in the fabrication and machining side of things but realistically speaking, you could literally go through your tractor from end to end, redesigning and improving existing parts to the point where the ten grand Ingersoll you are complaining about would have to cost twenty grand.

In a nutshell KK, you can't have it both ways. Parts do wear out. To date, no one has ever complained about a lift arm being inadequate nor have I seen complaints about premature failure of steering shafts or the pinion gears. To be fair, I have seen complaints about the stamped steel quadrant gears and the aluminum mandrels on mowing decks but guess what? Ingersoll went back to cast iron on both. Problem solved.

Don't get me wrong. I love what you do and I enjoy your threads. Criticism is often a good thing but in this instance.... I have to disagree because time has proven the steering system to be amazingly bulletproof.
KK, it seems as though you miss many of the points I was trying to make.

HD,
In my "Private Message" I sent to you, I waz not complaining about anything..I said Quote: That $9600.00 :usa2: dollors waz stupid money for a gas powered 2wd..

If you feel that $9600.00 for a loaded 4223PS GT is "stupid money", then that is something that I view as a complaint. If you were happy with that price, then you would not say that the asking price is stupid. Not all homeowners want or even need diesel engines, 4 wheel drive or all-wheel steering. Many could care less about a cup holder. Whether we are talking about a Colt, Case or Ingersoll tractor, the price has always been high but you have to factor inflation in order to come to that conclusion. A dollar back in 1965 bought you a lot more than a dollar will today. The dollar of today is more like the dime in 1965. Therefore, if you move the decimal point in that price, one position to the left, it becomes $960.00 and that's right in the ballpark of what a nice, new Colt Rancher or Case 180 cost in 1965. It's a good thing that people didn't feel that number to be stupid money back then or both lines of tractors would have been dropped by Case before 1969 rolled around.

My tractor is class of 88, 2498.8 hrs on the clock. Runs like new, and burns no oil, orignal engine parts.
Why would I NOT upgrade my steering? :headscratcher: I have a machine shop,..No special tooling was required for this operation.. Besides that my tractor was pleading for lube.

Are you not considering the fact that the shaft will turn easier riding on a film of molly,..Instead of dry gulling steel? :think:

I have no quarrel with you making these "upgrades". As you say, you have a machine shop and the skills to do so. Bravo. I wish I had the same. But like many members of this forum, I do not. Therefore I view this "upgrade" quite differently. For me the questions are. "Is it really necessary?" and "How much will a machine shop charge me?" and "Will this make a dynamic difference to the steering of my tractor?"

In my opinion, it isn't necessary, it will cost me too much and the cost vs benefits factor cannot be justified. As I said before, this alleged shortfall by the Case engineers has never come up on any forum I have been a member of since 2004. There is no question that you are making an improvement and extending the life of the steering shaft in the process. However, you are on a public forum with over 1600 members. What gets talked about in this thread will end up in the archives of the site. Members that join in the future MAY come across this thread when searching the archives and form the conclusion that this galling is a major problem, when it is not. There are far more compelling issues when it comes to hard steering then the one you are working on and the only way those members will understand that, is if someone on this forum challenges you. That's my job. It's what I did on MTF and on the Yahoo site.


You said I needed to keep in mind that the additional cost of this upgrade waz gona effect the price tag...
Heres your numbers} Oilite bushing from McMaster Carr. pt# 6338k425. 1 of pricing} $1.11 Thats One dollor and eleven pennys...
Ill betcha that you wont find a steel bushing for less...

Ok,. lets say that the steel bushings were free :sidelaugh: .. The total cost of this upgrade would be about a buck..Probably more like 75 cents with a volume discount..

I would make quick work of the extra inventory problem by tossing all the steel bushings in a scrap bucket , and reload that bin with oilite bushing.

You are ignoring the fact that there are machining costs involved, assembly costs involved, inventory costs involved, overhead costs involved, tooling costs and who knows what else. Once these costs are added to the basic cost of the finished product, then the factory owner marks up the price of the tractor and then ships it to the regional distributor who marks it up again before delivering it to the local dealer who marks it up again before selling it to the consumer.

In my original post I stated: Why didnt they use oilite bushings?.. Or a grease fittin? Meaning the should have dun one or the other,..
You miss read me,,,I wasnt complaining...I waz criticizeing the case/ingersoll engineers for running a "dry" joint in {THEE MOST CRITICAL} point of the steering :rockon:

The engineers were pretty good at putting zerks on these tractors where they are truly needed. Obviously they looked at that area and felt one was not needed due to the few turns lock to lock of the steering system. In my opinion, time has proven their decision to be correct due to the lack of complaints about that area of the steering.

Even a dumb ol farm boy like me knows,.. thats a {piss poor excuse} for mechinical engineering..
Iam still bettin ya,, they spent more money screwing up, Using the steel bushing, then they would have spent doing it right with oilite..

Once again, that would be your opinion and you are certainly entitled and welcome to express it on this forum. But as I have already indicated, the absence of complaint about this issue in the 200,000 posts I have read, tells me a different story.

As far as my lift link with the built in shock absorber, Its not for everybody, Only those concerned with keeping the belly cylinder intact and functioning properly.. It only....
takes the shock loads out of the circut to prevent premature joint wear and all the slop that comes with that, resulting in cylinder tear outs, cylinder mount falures, and the ocasional frame tearout.

Ask anyone who really knows these tractors and they will tell you that the damage you speak of is uncommon and when it does happen, the reason is .....someone let an "animal" use the tractor.

Oh yea,.. it also allows you 1.1/2" adjustment in travel parameters so you can dial in you grading capibalites. plus the tierod ends boast a 400% increase in bearing area. Plus if your grand kids get to fellin a little slop in the link they can easly replace the ends from many online web sites.

There is a limited amount of grading that can be done with what is essentially a 2-way blade. You would need a 6-way blade and it would have to be a lot heavier in weight than the OEM one is for it to be useful. A good quality box blade mounted to a 3 point hitch will run circles around this "push blade".

Tom, Iam doing these things to keep my beloved 446 in tip top tight condition, Your protest suprises me but.. Ill gona keep doin my thing..
Sorry,. but thats how we do it here at my shop. UP Grades are what drivs me, Especially when I can save money on maintence,..And enjoy a tite ride along the way

As I said, carry on with whatever you wish to do. That is your right and I don't interfere with individual rights. You brought this forward and now I'm discussing the merits of it in the context of my own personal exposure to these tractors. It's what we do here. We discuss issues.

OH,. that steering shaft you dont approve of has been deamed obsolete, And, Iam pissed because it hasent even been installed yet. Ill post the new version later.

Theres,..One thing that I forgot to tell you,.. I dont belive you when you tell me that theres no room for improvement in the case /inge steering. And,. Iam the only one that thinks so

kubotakid :usa2:
Please don't twist my words. I have never made a blanket statement that there is no improvement needed for the tractors. Nothing is perfect, including me. The fact remains that thousands upon thousands of customers bought these tractors over the past 47 years. Until recently, there was no such thing as a power steering option on the GT's and yet, owners kept coming back to the dealers and trading in there old tractor for a new one. If steering was a problem, then why did they keep buying newer tractors that had the same steering system? And if there was a howl from the owners and dealers about steering, then why are they still using the same components in 2012? That's why I have to say that you are trying to solve what is essentially a non-existent problem. Sorry if this offends your sensibilities but the facts support my position.
HD,
My opinion of a 4223 PS GT, is based on whats available today, not what was available in 1965, or otherwise. For $9600.00 the only option it had was a 3pt, & 48" mower. NO pto,, NO hydraulic remote outlets. And of course gas motor and 2wd.
Now sitting in the same show room is a 18 hp kubota 3 cyl diesel, 4x4, smooth as silk hydrostat 2 speed trans. Cat 1 3pt, 540 rear pto, 2500 mid pto. joystick loader package 2 remotes. posi traction, cruze control, high back seat, digital tack, on & on. For $9200.00 :think:

Enough already, Lets talk steering up grades.
Your telling me:
its not necesary.
it cost to much
and it wont help much..

Iam sayin, If I have to explain to you the benifits of using oil in a transmission, compared to running it dry....Were waisting our time here.

You dont need a machine shop to install an oilite bushing.
The oilite bushing I posted a pic of is 13% 30 w oil..
In other words its self lubercating..
If some one wants more lube Ill machine the shaft for a greese fitting.

You said: I was ignoring the facts of,
machining costs?
assembly costs?
inventory costs?
overhead costs?
tooling costs?
and other costs?

Iam sayin your crazy for even thinkin of makin your own..
I gave you all the imfo, The pt# and the cost.
for $ 1.11 ea Why not just call Mc Master Carr and have them ship you a box of oilites

Your comment about my lift arm was an insult to member mjoe7, He not an animal.. :sidelaugh:
I dont think its his fault there are weak links in the lift system, But you do?
I usally dont wate for somthing to fall apart on my equipment before I evaluate and decide to let it go or make improvements, to make it stand up to the task,
I know from experience when joints get sloppy chit happens

Your opinion of the utility blades capibilitys and mine dont agree.
1) its a full swing 4 way blade. Not a 2 way
2) You can easily angle cut by lowering one of the skid shoes, allows making 6 way blade cuts.
Your opinion is can the blade for a box blade, Maybe I dont have $1000.00 to throw at a 3pt and box scraper?
Iam not sure how your gona crown your drive using a box blade? :headscratcher:

In your closing statments you claim,, Iam trying to solve a problem that dosent exsist, with my steering upgrade..Dont need it and never did...

I made it clear that my tractor was class of 88
I think that was the first year they did away with the cast iron cross member for the steering gear.

And they also elected to do away with the greese fittings on both the Quadrant & and the pinion gear. Left em high and dry crying for lube.

So..Do your home work before tellin me yada yada, all about these tractors sporting the same steering gear for the past 40 sum years, thats b-chit

Sorry, if this offends your sensibilites but the facts support "MY" position

kubotakid :usa2:
 

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kubotakid said:
HD,
My opinion of a 4223 PS GT, is based on whats available today, not what was available in 1965, or otherwise. For $9600.00 the only option it had was a 3pt, & 48" mower. NO pto,, NO hydraulic remote outlets. And of course gas motor and 2wd.
Now sitting in the same show room is a 18 hp kubota 3 cyl diesel, 4x4, smooth as silk hydrostat 2 speed trans. Cat 1 3pt, 540 rear pto, 2500 mid pto. joystick loader package 2 remotes. posi traction, cruze control, high back seat, digital tack, on & on. For $9200.00 :think:

Enough already, Lets talk steering up grades.
Your telling me:
its not necesary.

KK,

What I'm telling you is this. To you, this is an upgrade and I am fine with that. You are free to put roller bearings into your front axle pivot or hard chrome the pivot points on a sleeve hitch, if you wish. It's your tractor, not mine. Have fun with it. But I'm also attempting to explain that historically speaking, this upgrade of yours is a solution for a non-existant problem. Please..... join MTF and the Yahoo CCI forum and then scour the 90,000 posts at the Yahoo forum that date back to 1999 along with probably 50,000 posts at MTF. See if you can find numerous complaints about their steering shaft that this upgrade of yours would address. That sir.... is my point. NO ONE is complaining except you. :lol: :lol: So.... if no one else is complaining, then why should other members follow your suggestion and carry out this upgrade?


it cost to much
and it wont help much..

Iam sayin, If I have to explain to you the benifits of using oil in a transmission, compared to running it dry....Were waisting our time here.

KK... that's a really poor analogy. Gears in a transmission are in constant motion. A steering shaft has minimal motion and only when it receives input from the driver.

You dont need a machine shop to install an oilite bushing.

Having a lathe certainly allows someone to accurately drill a hole in the center of the steering shaft. Having a drill press with vice allows someone to accurately drill the cross hole needed for grease to reach the bearing or to bore the steering support bracket to allow the insertion of an oilite bearing. What you fail to realize is that only a handful of our membership own these tool and many don't possess the skills needed to use them. As such, a machine shop is their only option and if they could find a machine shop that charged ONLY $40,00 per hour, the cost would be too high to justify the minimal gain that would result from this upgrade. It's much simpler to just drool some oil onto the steering shaft once per season and let gravity make it flow into the area between the shaft and the support.

The oilite bushing I posted a pic of is 13% 30 w oil..
In other words its self lubercating..
If some one wants more lube Ill machine the shaft for a greese fitting.

According to the photos...you already machined the shaft for a grease fitting. It was my understanding that all of this was your upgrade.

You said: I was ignoring the facts of,
machining costs?
assembly costs?
inventory costs?
overhead costs?
tooling costs?
and other costs?

Iam sayin your crazy for even thinkin of makin your own..
I gave you all the imfo, The pt# and the cost.
for $ 1.11 ea Why not just call Mc Master Carr and have them ship you a box of oilites

At no time did I ever suggest that anyone make their own bushing. Your photos clearly showed a steering shaft that was drilled in two directions and then tapped for a grease fitting. That entails extra machining costs to produce a shaft like that. Buying the bushing adds another component to the cost as does installing the bushing as does stocking the bushing as does making room in the parts bins does and so on. Every time you add something to the build of a tractor, costs are involved beyond the price of the part. Those costs are ultimately borne by the end user. Tell me this isn't true.

Your comment about my lift arm was an insult to member mjoe7, He not an animal.. :sidelaugh:

Many members buy these old tractors and they know nothing about them. That's why they come to this forum or to other forums. When they do join one or more forums, they begin to learn about the problems other owners are having. Some of the tractors were one-owner but many have had several owners before the member got his/her hands on it. The latest owner has no idea whether one or more of the past owners brutalized the tractor or not. Failure of some parts is often not instantaneous but instead it is a cumulative over the years. It often goes unnoticed until it finally fails. The owner is perplexed because at the time of the failure, s/he wasn't working the tractor hard.

I dont think its his fault there are weak links in the lift system, But you do?

The fact is.......... if you buy 20 feet of chain with hooks on the ends and then try to tow one bulldozer out of the mud with a larger bulldozer, then you are placing strain on every link in that chain. If you keep pulling and the dozer that is stuck won't move, then you will begin to distort and stretch the chain links. Eventually, ONE link will break and the chain will part. The point is....every piece of machinery has weak points. Sometimes, those are engineered in just like a fuse is engineered into an electrical system. Failure of that part indicates that there is a system overload. By letting that part fail, more expensive parts are protected from damage. In this instance, the mounting bracket for the lift cylinder can be easily replaced or repaired. If the strength of this bracket was increased substantially, then perhaps the strain would be transferred to the frame of the tractor and damage would result there. Frame damage is much more difficult repair.

So...let's look at your lift link. If someone puts their tractor in Hi Range while plowing snow with a Utility Blade and then rams into snow banks at 4 MPH to try and push them back, your spring-loaded link will quickly compress and not protect the tractor from being damaged. Granted, it might delay the tearing out of the lift cylinder bracket but eventually the owner will reach the point of tear out anyway. Once again, I have to make mention that lift bracket tear out is not a burning issue. It does happen but not enough for anyone to get excited about. So... I have to say that you are working on a solution to a relatively non-existent problem. But, I have no quarrel with you making this arm for yourself. If others wish to buy a copy, that too is up to them. However, many people join this site because they are seeking the most factual information available. That's what we (the partners) try to do.. every single day. They rely on us to separate the wheat from the chaff. If someone joined this site and offered OEM key switches with gold plated terminals, then I would challenge the need for that too.

Unlike some of the other forums, we are super careful about the type of information that gets posted here. We strive to keep it accurate at all times. Your experiments are certainly interesting but I feel they are also misleading because they imply that there is a burning need for them but you have failed in your duty to demonstrate that need. Sorry to have to be so blunt but since you persist in trying to defend what you are doing, I have to point this out.


I usally dont wate for somthing to fall apart on my equipment before I evaluate and decide to let it go or make improvements, to make it stand up to the task,
I know from experience when joints get sloppy chit happens

Your opinion of the utility blades capibilitys and mine dont agree.
1) its a full swing 4 way blade. Not a 2 way

Technically that is true but you are talking to ME and I am a heavy equipment operator and owner. If you think that jumping on and off a machine to manually angle a blade from left to right and back to center is fun..... then go for it. When grading, you are constantly altering the angle of the blade and any blade that cannot be power angled is next to useless.

2) You can easily angle cut by lowering one of the skid shoes, allows making 6 way blade cuts.

What you are referring to is "tilt", not "angle". Go and look at any new dozer with a 6-way blade on it and see if you can find any slop in the pivots or linkage. You won't. The lack of slop or free-play gives the operator precision control over the height, angle and tilt of the blade at all times. A Case Utility Blade is designed with free play in it so that the cutting edge lays flat on the surface and CUTS... even though the tractor might be on an angle.

Your opinion is can the blade for a box blade, Maybe I dont have $1000.00 to throw at a 3pt and box scraper?

Not my problem and that's totally irrelevant to the situation. Wise men choose the right tool for the job. If they don't own it, they rent it or they hire someone who has it. Money spent on a 3 point is well-spent. A brand new one is for sale right now in the Classifieds for $300.00. Used box scrapers can be found for sale for $300.00 or less. Perhaps you should turn your talents toward an improved box scraper that other members can build.

Iam not sure how your gona crown your drive using a box blade? :headscratcher:

Then perhaps you should buy one and learn how to use it and a three point hitch. Then you will fully understand that crowning a road can be done with a box scraper.

In your closing statments you claim,, Iam trying to solve a problem that dosent exsist, with my steering upgrade..Dont need it and never did...

Yes Sir.... that's more or less my point but you take it too far. I did not say that the problem is non-existent. What I did say is that the problem is minor. If I scratch my hand on something and blood appears, I might put a bandaid on the area to keep it clean while it heals. I don't call 911 and get an ambulance to rush me to the hospital for surgery.

I made it clear that my tractor was class of 88
I think that was the first year they did away with the cast iron cross member for the steering gear.

And they also elected to do away with the greese fittings on both the Quadrant & and the pinion gear. Left em high and dry crying for lube.

Ingersoll went to a stamped steel quadrant gear around that time but changed back to cast iron when they found out it didn't work. Previously, there was a grease fitting for the cast quadrant and the OP manuals call for grease to be applied to the teeth of the quadrant gear every 50 hours. Page 44 of Parts Manual 8-2752 covers the final PIN's of the Onan powered tractors (226, 446 & 448) It shows that Ingersoll also switched from a cast iron support bracket for the steering and control levers to one made from stamped steel. Because of that change to a THINNER support, the engineers spec'd a bushing (Item 9) for the lower end of the steering shaft and another 2 bushings (Item 13) to go inside the stamped quadrant gear. Looks to me like the engineers were not afraid to put bushings where they felt bushings were truly needed. It also appears as though your tractor should already have these bushings unless it is an earlier version.

So..Do your home work before tellin me yada yada, all about these tractors sporting the same steering gear for the past 40 sum years, thats b-chit

The basic design of the steering has remained unchanged since the 195/155 models back in 1967/8. It is still a pinion and quadrant gear system. I previously acknowledged that Ingersoll used a stamped quadrant for a short time but those were problematic so they went back to the cast quadrant. The FACT that owners can remove the stamped quadrant and replace it with a cast quadrant is proof that the steering system has remained unchanged for the past 40 years. The Hy driv system has also remained unchanged since its advent in 1963 but over the years, different drive motors, different oil coolers, different oil tanks, different pumps, different control valves have all been used. So what? It's still a hydraulically driven tractor that uses a pump, control valve, drive motor, oil cooler and reservoir tank.

Sorry, if this offends your sensibilites but the facts support "MY" position

kubotakid :usa2:
It would seem to me that your "facts" are based upon your exposure to the tractor you own. My facts are based upon the exposure of all the members on MTF, Yahoo, TractorbyNet, Yesterday's Tractors, GT Talk, GardenWeb and this site. I have done my homework for the past 8 years on those forums. What I don't see happening in this thread are dozens of posts from other members who support your position by saying that they had their support bracket tear apart three times in the past five years or that they have to replace their steering shaft every five years because of poor design. Plain and simple....those things don't happen. If they did, then there would be numerous posts in our archives to support your contentions. And since we have over 40,000 posts in just over one year, that's saying something when the Yahoo forum has about 90,000 posts since November of 1999. You are going to have to do better than you have so far to convince me that these mods are needed. However, I do appreciate your workmanship just the same.
 
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