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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I see 80 and 90 wt gear oil and 20W40 recommended. What thoughts do you have on -30 to +40 climate temperature ranges? Typically I like to buy 15W40 DMO in bulk and use in all my equipment where practical. It even fits in with harley davidson recommendations for motor and tranny.
Chris
 

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Re: Transaxel lubrication

Interesting question.

My thoughts are these.

The use of a "hypoid" type of gear lube really isn't essential because there are no hypoid cut gears in the trans-axle.

However, for some inexplicable reason, Ingersoll stopped putting three quarts of oil in the trans-axles and went to one pint. Now that's one sixth of the amount of oil they did use even though there were no changes to the trans-axle other than the addition of a new level plug on the right side of the case.

This troubles me a bit. It also troubles some of the dealers too because they have been known to add a full quart to those trans-axles for good measure. I think that if I encountered temps that chilly, I'd choose a synthetic 20W50 if I had a tractor with the side mounted level plug and put the whole quart in. For sure, it would flow easier in those bone-chilling temps and the extra cost won't break the bank.
 

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Re: Transaxel lubrication

FWIW, I have the " 3 plug" transaxle and the book says one pint. However, it requires almost a quart before it flows out of the fill level plug. (?) I`m pretty confident that more is better than less in a gearbox.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks Guys.
It's really chilly out today. I'm working on the loose throttle lever today to stop it from vibrating back. I might just throw a torch and a pipe under that gearbox and thaw it a bit, then change it. It won't shift when it's cold, but when I used her the other day for a couple hours when it was closer to 0'C i was able to shift into high for the ride home. I'm thinking it might have a little ice in it. I believe it's a '72 machine, so is that a 3 quart model?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I think that was the first time the oil was ever changed in that gearbox. Full of water and lots of goop, tried using a wire to scrape the chunks of muck towards the drain. Had to use a vacuum to get the sludge out while thinning it with gas. No wonder it wouldn't shift. Poor little tractor. Tightened the rivet a bit on the throttle lever. It actually has little radial cut teeth on the mating suffices for grip. Not quite finished yet had to come in to warm up. Dang is it cold out!
Chris
 

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The way to clean it out is this.

Put on jack stands.

Drain out all the old oil and contaminants.

Install the drain plug, remove the fill plug, pour in 2 litres of diesel fuel.

Start tractor, run at idle. With shifter in HI Range, advance travel lever as far forward as you feel prudent.

Wheels will rotate along with trans-axle innards. Diesel fuel will wash out interior and gears.

Stop tractor engine. Drain out diesel. Repeat process second time. Drain again into clean bucket and make a judgment call based on what the diesel looks like. If it appears to be clean, the stick two liters of the cheapest oil you can buy into the rear end and repeat. This flush will absorb the diesel. Drain one last time and the refill with your oil of choice.
 

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I don't have the extensive experience of some of the guys here, so, unless the topic falls within the narrow scope of my knowledge, I stand by and let the "been there, done that" members respond. However, I do visit the various forums regularly and read a lot of posts. It's a rainy day in SE Texas, so I thought I might jump in here.

As to the 3 quart versus 1 pint issue:
The transaxle is essentially splash lubed. The turning gears and parts distribute lube to the various components. If I understand correctly, this includes the axle shaft and outboard bearings.
The only discussions of potential benefits/problems I have encountered related to the 3 quart versus 1 pint issue are questions about sufficient axle and outboard bearing lubrication.

3 Quart – Argument For
My Ingersoll 6018 Operators Manual recommends changing transaxle lube every 500 hours. Unless compelling evidence to the contrary is uncovered, 3 quarts every 500 hours doesn't represent a financial hardship, so why not go with the "more is better" approach.

3 Quart – Argument Against
I have seen references to excessive oil weeping at the outboard axle seals. Since oil migrates down the axle to the outboard bearings, is it possible that a high oil level contributes to excessive oil migration and weeping?

1 Pint – Argument For
If 1 pint is sufficient, 3 quarts is overkill. It would be a waste of money and natural resources to use more. And, if the 3 quart fill leads to excessive oil migration and weeping outboard seals, then the lower level might be the cure.

1 Pint – Argument Against
I pint. Really? Even under the best of circumstances, this seems like too little to consistently provide all wear components with adequate lube. And, under operating conditions, if the lube drops (weeps out or is lost) there isn't much of a safety factor.
Also, if the 1 pint fill doesn't allow lube to migrate down the axles to the outboard bearings, then any condition that lowers the level might subject the axles and bearings to excessive wear.

Chris reports lots of water and gunk in the transaxle (a common observation in this situation). In this case, if the transaxle had a 1 pint fill, the volume of water can easily exceed the volume of oil. How much lubrication and protection do you get from an emulsion of 1 pint oil/4+ pints of water?

Which Lube is Best?
The factory reference materials I have seen recommend 20W40 engine oil or 80-90 EP gear lube. The manuals list the 20W-40 oil first, but do not express a clear preference. I know there are lube purists who may argue the superiority and benefits of one over the other. However, the transaxles are robustly built and operate at a relatively low speed. As I recall, the drive motors on 200/3000 series tractors only turn about 140 RPM flat out so the transaxle internals aren’t exactly breaking the sound barrier.

However, I do wonder if there are actual benefits favoring one over the other. For example, is gear lube "stickier" than engine oil and thus cling to gears better? If so, is this a benefit? Is there a down side to using gear lube in cold climates that clearly shifts favor to multi grade engine oil (depending on season/climate)?

Why did Hydriv recommend 20W-50 SYNTHETIC oil instead of conventional Dino oil? Is it because in synthetic oil, the base stock is the higher viscosity (in this case 50) and modifiers help it pour and perform like lower viscosity oils at lower temps? My reading suggests 20W-50 approximates 90 wt gear lube. Why didn't he fully explain his rationale? Is it because talking about oil makes people crazy? Or, is it because of his well known aversion to conflict? :sidelaugh:

I told you I was bored.
 

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ING6018 said:
I don't have the extensive experience of some of the guys here, so, unless the topic falls within the narrow scope of my knowledge, I stand by and let the "been there, done that" members respond. However, I do visit the various forums regularly and read a lot of posts. Once you join here, reading at other forums is verboten. I thought you knew that. :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: It's a rainy day in SE Texas, so I thought I might jump in here.

As to the 3 quart versus 1 pint issue:
The trans-axle is essentially splash lubed. The turning gears and parts distribute lube to the various components. If I understand correctly, this includes the axle shaft and outboard bearings. Your understanding is correct. However, those outboard bearings are just simple bronze bushings.
The only discussions of potential benefits/problems I have encountered related to the 3 quart versus 1 pint issue are questions about sufficient axle and outboard bearing lubrication.

3 Quart - Argument For
My Ingersoll 6018 Operators Manual recommends changing trans-axle lube every 500 hours. Unless compelling evidence to the contrary is uncovered, 3 quarts every 500 hours doesn't represent a financial hardship, so why not go with the "more is better" approach. Please don't hate me for bringing this to your attention but......you don't read well. :sidelaugh: That 500 hour remark is there for the guys who use their tractors daily and rack up 500 hours or more each year. Take another look at your manual. Owners are supposed to change the trans-axle fluid ANNUALLY or every 500 hours, whichever comes first.

For most of you, it would take ten years to rack up 500 hours at 50 hours of use per year. So if water begins infiltrating the trans-axle after the first two years of ownership, you wouldn't know that for eight more years unless it froze up one winter and you tried to use the tractor. Condensation will take place inside the trans-axle even if the gasket does not leak.


3 Quart - Argument Against
I have seen references to excessive oil weeping at the outboard axle seals. Since oil migrates down the axle to the outboard bearings, is it possible that a high oil level contributes to excessive oil migration and weeping? That's a silly argument by those who say that. There's no pressure on the seals regardless of whether there is one pint or three quarts in the trans-axle. And if they are weeping, it's because they are either worn out due to wheel bushing slop or they have become hard from age and no longer press tightly against the axle shaft.

It amazes me that some owners fail to understand that they own a tractor that is 15 to 40 years old. Nothing lasts forever. No one should be shocked when the axle seals in a 1977 444 start to leak nor should they blame it on having 3 quarts in the trans-axle. If you question my position, then you best be prepared to explain why the axle seals on all the Colts and all the old 100 series Case tractors weren't known for pissing oil all over the ground. After all, in those tractors, the trans-axle was also the hydraulic reservoir and it was filled to within ONE INCH of the top cover with 10 quarts of 20W40 from the factory.

On top of that, the hydraulic oil got heated to a minimum temp of 180F every time the tractor was out working for a few hours. So.......tell me how those seals managed with a full load of hot oil up against them for a full 365 degrees?


1 Pint - Argument For
If 1 pint is sufficient, 3 quarts is overkill. It would be a waste of money and natural resources to use more. And, if the 3 quart fill leads to excessive oil migration and weeping outboard seals, then the lower level might be the cure.
While I agree that oil or any other natural resource should not be wasted, the fact remains that all oil can be recycled. It doesn't wear out. It just become contaminated and therefore unfit for further service until it has been recycled.

Oil is the least expensive item compared to a trans-axle repair. However, if you are not a commercial user, then even if one pint is a bit on the shy side of ideal, it would take a long, long time for any real issue to surface due to a single pint being used.


1 Pint - Argument Against
I pint. Really? Even under the best of circumstances, this seems like too little to consistently provide all wear components with adequate lube. And, under operating conditions, if the lube drops (weeps out or is lost) there isn't much of a safety factor.
Also, if the 1 pint fill doesn't allow lube to migrate down the axles to the outboard bearings, then any condition that lowers the level might subject the axles and bearings to excessive wear.

I am far more in tune with that logic.

Chris reports lots of water and gunk in the trans-axle (a common observation in this situation). In this case, if the trans-axle had a 1 pint fill, the volume of water can easily exceed the volume of oil. How much lubrication and protection do you get from an emulsion of 1 pint oil/4+ pints of water?

Not much but even water is better than no lubricant at all.

Which Lube is Best?
The factory reference materials I have seen recommend 20W40 engine oil or 80-90 EP gear lube. The manuals list the 20W-40 oil first, but do not express a clear preference. I know there are lube purists who may argue the superiority and benefits of one over the other. However, the trans-axles are robustly built and operate at a relatively low speed. As I recall, the drive motors on 200/3000 series tractors only turn about 140 RPM flat out so the trans-axle internals aren't exactly breaking the sound barrier.

Not only are they not breaking the sound barrier but they are not breaking either. In the seven years that I was on the Yahoo forum and the three years on MTF and other forums, I have yet to encounter an owner saying that his trans-axle gears wore out. Any sort of internal breakage of the gears or shafts is ultra-rare to the point of being unheard of. Any breakage is normally attributed to the failure of the four bolts in the carrier shearing or coming off and the amount of lube played no part in that.

However, I do wonder if there are actual benefits favoring one over the other. For example, is gear lube "stickier" than engine oil and thus cling to gears better? If so, is this a benefit? Is there a down side to using gear lube in cold climates that clearly shifts favor to multi-grade engine oil (depending on season/climate)? Oil lubricates best when it is warm. In the dead of winter, the trans-axle oil may take a long time to warm up to an ideal temperature where it flows easily into every crack and crevice. The engine manufacturers have recognized this problem and now specify oil grades that were unheard of twenty or thirty-years ago.

They want super thin oil at cold temps so it will immediately lube the entire engine. Overhead camshafts are of primary concern.


Why did Hydriv recommend 20W-50 SYNTHETIC oil instead of conventional Dino oil? Is it because in synthetic oil, the base stock is the higher viscosity (in this case 50) and modifiers help it pour and perform like lower viscosity oils at lower temps? My reading suggests 20W-50 approximates 90 wt gear lube. Why didn't he fully explain his rationale? Is it because talking about oil makes people crazy? Or, is it because of his well known aversion to conflict? :sidelaugh:

Both, actually. We bar any mention of politics, sex and religion on this site and oil comes in at a close fourth. Synthetic oil isn't oil at all. It's a bunch of chemicals that simulate the lubricating qualities of that crap oil companies extract from the ground. However, using those chemicals means that they can formulate a witch's brew that does not contain the wax found in dino oil that makes it go nearly solid in sub-zero temps.

The use of a synthetic oil anywhere in these tractors is a choice that is left up to the owner. There are known benefits that come with synthetics that dino oil cannot provide. The colder it gets outside, the better the synthetic looks. If it flow easier, then it lubes better at low temps and it also takes less HP to propel the tractor. I suppose that one could argue that this puts less wear and tear on the pump and drive motor but I'd like to know how you could prove that statement to be true.

Oil is often more about opinion than fact. I just read a thread reply on another site where the person stated he used Mobil 1 synthetic in his walk behind tiller and it develops more HP as a result. Hmmmm. What about that statement? On a five hp engine, how much of a HP increase would be realized by switching from dino oil to synthetic? You tell me. And let's say it was a whopping 10%. Could you actually feel that 1/2 HP increase? I don't think so but I'll leave it up to you to draw your own conclusions.


I told you I was bored.
Yes, I could tell. :sidelaugh:
 

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A personal story from about 4 years ago.

Two motorcycles, both 2 strokes with metal fuel tanks.
One cycle with dino mix, one with synthetic mix.
Both cycles fueled up to the top before they stopped being ridden. Due to a chain of events, neither motorcycle was prepared for storage, it just happened that way.
Cycles were stored side by side in a semi heated concrete tilt up shop where the temperature never dropped below 50 F but did experience 90+ F in the summer. The humidity in the shop was not controlled.
After 4 or 5 years, both motorcycles were prepped to ride again.
The cycle with synthetic mix had rust throughout the tank independent of fuel level.
The cycle with dino mix had no rust in the tank.

Based on that, I would mix a pint or so of dino oil with the synthetic for the gearbox. Rusty bearings would be a bummer.

Your mileage may vary.
 

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OK, so you are telling me that I basically just "wasted" 2 qts of SAE90 on my transaxle oil change..... (and every other transaxle change that I have done over the years)I filled it until it ran out the fill plug on the rear... Oh well it isn't leaking so It isn't hurting anything either right??? I was wondering why so little drained out of my 4016 when I popped the drain plug..
 

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If you wish to conclude that you wasted the oil, then that's OK. However, it is not what I would conclude. Case introduced that trans-axle in 1969 and continued with that 2-plug 3 quart design for about 10 years until they added one more plug and started putting 1 pt in there. I don't consider adhering to what the Op Manual tells me to do to be a waste.

However, logic says that 1 pint must be working OK since 30 years have gone by and trans-axles are not disintegrating nor are wheel bearings failing. Ingersoll Dealer Tom Hanson says that he and other dealers he talks to have opted to put a full quart into those one pint axles just to be safe.

Logic also dictates that the more oil you have in there, the more contamination that oil can absorb before becoming "toxic". You opted to use EP Gear oil in the belief it was the better choice so why moan about two extra quarts in the back end of your baby? :sidelaugh: Better to err on the side of caution then to go el cheapo and kick your ass for doing so.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Here's the reality of the situation. It's so cold out (-25C) that the emulsion did not all drop out even after heating till warm with the tiger torch and coffee can. I could see it like slush in the gears through the fill hole. Even when trying to fill with garage warmed 5W50 synthetic oil, the 1/2" nipples I plumbed to pour the oil in was sucking the heat out of it so fast it couldn't pour down the nipple, even after jacking the back of the tractor up for more slope. The rear end doesn't breath properly, it wants to burp the air out my fill pipe. Perhaps it has a plugged vent, or maybe that's an improvement it needs another day. I pulled the plumbing apart and threaded a small Dia vaccuum tube thru the fittings so the air could exhaust while topping the rest off with some crappy harley davidson 20w50 that poured even worse. Got it up to the plug level, (I believe it was put at that height for a reason, could be that it had something to do with proper bearing and seal height). Now if you think I'm going to bugger around with it any more while it's this friggin' cold out, you've got rocks in your head. Spring's coming. Then it'll get 15W40. It's a lot better than it was before, I can change gears, I pulled the battery tray off and took it inside and did a little welding, painting, epoxying on a nice cork gasket cusion to hold the battery, along with some rings on each end to hook a bungee in to hold it still, and then I put it all back together and went and bladed some snow. It worked great! Throttle lever tightening worked great as well. Tomorrow after supper I'm going to go over to my daughter's house and blade some 8" hardpack off her driveway and have a time! It's snowing again. Did I mention it's friggin' cold out! :crazy:
 

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Hydriv said:
ING6018 said:
I don't have the extensive experience of some of the guys here, so, unless the topic falls within the narrow scope of my knowledge, I stand by and let the "been there, done that" members respond. However, I do visit the various forums regularly and read a lot of posts. Once you join here, reading at other forums is verboten. I thought you knew that. :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh: :sidelaugh:
My error. I only read here...I only read here...

3 Quart - Argument For
My Ingersoll 6018 Operators Manual recommends changing trans-axle lube every 500 hours. Unless compelling evidence to the contrary is uncovered, 3 quarts every 500 hours doesn't represent a financial hardship, so why not go with the "more is better" approach.

Please don't hate me for bringing this to your attention but......you don't read well. :sidelaugh: That 500 hour remark is there for the guys who use their tractors daily and rack up 500 hours or more each year. Take another look at your manual. Owners are supposed to change the trans-axle fluid ANNUALLY or every 500 hours, whichever comes first.
I appreciate that you are a strong proponent of obtaining, reading, and following the Operator's Manual. However, like the 3 quart- 1 pint issue, there must be differences in operating instructions concerning change intervals between various models. For example, a careful reading of the Ingersoll LOADER/TRACTOR 6018L & 6018BH Operator's Manual 8-59730 (page 2 footer reference - 7-95-RP-200) leads me to believe that this manual does not advise changing the transaxle lube ANNUALLY. I'm not saying I think it is a good idea to delay changing lube for the 10-15 years it might take to reach the 500 hour recommended change interval. I just do not find any reference to an ANNUAL change recommendation in this manual.
If you are correct, you may continue to gloat in your superior knowledge. If you are wrong, you must send me a 7020 LBH to compensate me for my pain and suffering. :usa:
 

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ING6018 said:
If you are wrong, you must send me a 7020 LBH to compensate me for my pain and suffering.
You know he has an attorney on his team, right? Unless you can prove, based on his recommendation, that you spilled 3 quarts of 180 degree 20w50 on your crotch, I'm pretty sure you're out of luck.
 

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ING6018 said:
Hydriv said:
ING6018 said:
I appreciate that you are a strong proponent of obtaining, reading, and following the Operator's Manual. However, like the 3 quart- 1 pint issue, there must be differences in operating instructions concerning change intervals between various models. For example, a careful reading of the Ingersoll LOADER/TRACTOR 6018L & 6018BH Operator's Manual 8-59730 (page 2 footer reference - 7-95-RP-200) leads me to believe that this manual does not advise changing the transaxle lube ANNUALLY. I'm not saying I think it is a good idea to delay changing lube for the 10-15 years it might take to reach the 500 hour recommended change interval. I just do not find any reference to an ANNUAL change recommendation in this manual.
If you are correct, you may continue to gloat in your superior knowledge. If you are wrong, you must send me a 7020 LBH to compensate me for my pain and suffering. :usa:
I cannot argue against that which I have not seen.

All I can tell you is this. I have a half-dozen or so Op Manuals for GT's and all of them have a chart for service. Each of them say the same thing about the annual oil change. If that information was omitted in the manual printed for your tractor, then someone needs to be reprimanded. There is little difference between the trans-axle in your loader and the ones used in the GT's all the way back to 1968.

All joking aside, I'm sure that common sense would prevail on my side when it comes to the 500 hour rule. What if someone only logged 25 hours per year? That would mean the first oil change would take place 20 years after the purchase. These trans-axles are notorious for water getting inside of them and the only way to know if that's happening or not is with an annual oil change.

As for the OP, he's apparently done what he needs to do to get his tractor operating. Once the temps get back to 50 F, he can follow my instructions to flush that trans-axle clean. At that point, he can decide which type of oil to use and how much.
 

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There is a little trick for filling the transaxle--remove the bolt behind the seat on the right side that holds the gas tank housing in place. That bolt goes straight into the transaxle so a small funnel placed in the hole makes adding oil much easier than trying to get it in one of the horizontal plugs on the case.
 

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Hydriv said:
If you wish to conclude that you wasted the oil, then that's OK. However, it is not what I would conclude. Case introduced that trans-axle in 1969 and continued with that 2-plug 3 quart design for about 10 years until they added one more plug and started putting 1 pt in there. I don't consider adhering to what the Op Manual tells me to do to be a waste.

However, logic says that 1 pint must be working OK since 30 years have gone by and trans-axles are not disintegrating nor are wheel bearings failing. Ingersoll Dealer Tom Hanson says that he and other dealers he talks to have opted to put a full quart into those one pint axles just to be safe.

Logic also dictates that the more oil you have in there, the more contamination that oil can absorb before becoming "toxic". You opted to use EP Gear oil in the belief it was the better choice so why moan about two extra quarts in the back end of your baby? :sidelaugh: Better to err on the side of caution then to go el cheapo and kick your ass for doing so.
Not moaning.... Just being a little sarcastic.... :sidelaugh: I prefer to err on the positive side... We all know that Case/ Ingy parts are not cheap and you get what you pay for .....
 
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