Power to the starter motor does not go thru the fuse.
Vanguard 16 starter replacement
This is the first time in maybe 20 yrs when what I thought might be a starter issue, was actually a starter issue. And yah, this isn't the first time in that time that I bought a starter to cover all bases.
So I need to swap the starter on my 4016 / Vanguard 16. Starter is shorted internally, it blows my 30A fuse if starter is enabled. Easy, right?
With a little slip on the top bolt, I got the starter out no problem, but I could not get the replacement in to save my life- the top bolt just would not start threading.
I have a few (normal and weird) universal joint adapters, the spring/ flex type of 3/8 driver (I think I got this for swapping the starter on a craftsman/briggs mower ages ago), plus other adapters, but... no joy. I felt like an idiot. I can get the lower bolt in/out, why not the top one?? Seems to need a super low-profile 13mm socket, do I have to cut one I have down??
Then I looked on google search.
Vanguard 16 is known for this- the bolt layout vs. the starter spin plate seems to be a known pain point.
I got the starter out, but getting the new one in... I just could not get the new upper bolt started, let alone in properly.
Here's what the interwebs say. Needs a special socket:
---
The Briggs p/n is 19353. It is a 13MM flex socket with 1/4 inch drive. It is made by Snap-On, probably not something you'll find at Sears or HD. The SO # is TMUM13. As I recall, it was quite pricey.
---
or if you can get the starter out as I did by luck, just toss the bolt that it came with into your parts bucket and go to a torx head and then (if you buy the right _long_ extension) your wrench will be able to fit in properly as you can get around that starter spin plate and have a clear line on the bolt.
Seems the newer Vanguard engines have a torx bolt here as default? So Briggs learned (sometime since '96) that this '96 implementation was not workable?
I felt like an idiot until I gave up, came indoors, and looked a little on the darn internet on this one. One guy could not get the installed bolt out and hacked his starter apart with a sawsall....at least I could get my starter out.
And my local DoIt hardware franchise had everything I needed to make this work- right metric bolt size with a TORX head, right driver, and options to make these clear the starter housing so I could install the starter. That was nice.
Brian.
So I need to swap the starter on my 4016 / Vanguard 16. Starter is shorted internally, it blows my 30A fuse if starter is enabled. Easy, right?
With a little slip on the top bolt, I got the starter out no problem, but I could not get the replacement in to save my life- the top bolt just would not start threading.
I have a few (normal and weird) universal joint adapters, the spring/ flex type of 3/8 driver (I think I got this for swapping the starter on a craftsman/briggs mower ages ago), plus other adapters, but... no joy. I felt like an idiot. I can get the lower bolt in/out, why not the top one?? Seems to need a super low-profile 13mm socket, do I have to cut one I have down??
Then I looked on google search.
Vanguard 16 is known for this- the bolt layout vs. the starter spin plate seems to be a known pain point.
I got the starter out, but getting the new one in... I just could not get the new upper bolt started, let alone in properly.
Here's what the interwebs say. Needs a special socket:
---
The Briggs p/n is 19353. It is a 13MM flex socket with 1/4 inch drive. It is made by Snap-On, probably not something you'll find at Sears or HD. The SO # is TMUM13. As I recall, it was quite pricey.
---
or if you can get the starter out as I did by luck, just toss the bolt that it came with into your parts bucket and go to a torx head and then (if you buy the right _long_ extension) your wrench will be able to fit in properly as you can get around that starter spin plate and have a clear line on the bolt.
Seems the newer Vanguard engines have a torx bolt here as default? So Briggs learned (sometime since '96) that this '96 implementation was not workable?
I felt like an idiot until I gave up, came indoors, and looked a little on the darn internet on this one. One guy could not get the installed bolt out and hacked his starter apart with a sawsall....at least I could get my starter out.
And my local DoIt hardware franchise had everything I needed to make this work- right metric bolt size with a TORX head, right driver, and options to make these clear the starter housing so I could install the starter. That was nice.
Brian.
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I trust you Bob but when I took the power line off the starter, and _at_ the power bolt on the starter not upstream--- the fuse didn't blow anymore... I bought 15 30A fuses planning on some troubleshooting here and I only burned 2 of them to get here.... : )
So what else could be biting me given this does (to me) seem starter-circuit-based? I'm open to something changing due to happy accident on my part, that may show up again later as a problem. Electrical seems like it could be wide-open (ha) field to explore.....
And, for folks needing to swap their starter- WTHeck are we supposed to have on-hand other than a saws-all as preparation?
So what else could be biting me given this does (to me) seem starter-circuit-based? I'm open to something changing due to happy accident on my part, that may show up again later as a problem. Electrical seems like it could be wide-open (ha) field to explore.....
And, for folks needing to swap their starter- WTHeck are we supposed to have on-hand other than a saws-all as preparation?
What is the model and PIN number of your tractor?
I was able to use a 1/4 drive Craftsman socket on a 6 inch extension to remove the starter - the 1/4 extension was thin enough to skinny by the starter housing. I may have had to "cant" it a little it one side, but it worked.
When I replaced my Vanguard last summer, I was told by Small Engine Warehouse that it needed to have a starter with a nylon gear or it could wear the flywheel ring gear. (The old flywheel was transferred to the new engine). My old starter had a metal gear as did the old flywheel.
The limited research I did seems to indicate that some of the early Vanguards used an aluminum (or some type of metal softer than steel?) ring gear on the flywheel so used a nylon starter gear to reduce wear on the ring gear.
With Respect, Willy
When I replaced my Vanguard last summer, I was told by Small Engine Warehouse that it needed to have a starter with a nylon gear or it could wear the flywheel ring gear. (The old flywheel was transferred to the new engine). My old starter had a metal gear as did the old flywheel.
The limited research I did seems to indicate that some of the early Vanguards used an aluminum (or some type of metal softer than steel?) ring gear on the flywheel so used a nylon starter gear to reduce wear on the ring gear.
With Respect, Willy
So first off- all is back up and running, but it doesn't totally make sense.
I initially dug around looking for any other short (bad battery, lighting-switches-safety circuits/switches) and could not find anything. The only thing that was repeatable was taking the lead off the starter, then the fuse would not blow. Makes no sense as I am sure that starter draws at least 100A so if it did participate in the circuit that the 30A fuse is part of, well there you go, right?
This issue presented with a turn of key, crank-crank-silence, it didn't die in mowing use or anything- I was sure it was the battery being old/shorted, initially.
But swapping the starter and all is magic. Cranks are about 25% more rpm than I had before. Maybe some high load to make the old starter crank leaked someplace and I have another problem to solve later- but I don't know how to make that thought experiment work.
@ Willy: The original starter and my Oregon replacement both came with a nylon drive gear. The flywheel ring gear looks super, no wear. From the serial this tractor should be ~1996 IIRC. It has 1190 hrs on it as of now. I am glad that you mentioned this so I could check, or I would have wondered/worried about it post-install.
Thank you all for your replies!
4016 serial 14191110Vanguard 16HP model 303447 type 1147-A2 3341 code 96082711
I initially dug around looking for any other short (bad battery, lighting-switches-safety circuits/switches) and could not find anything. The only thing that was repeatable was taking the lead off the starter, then the fuse would not blow. Makes no sense as I am sure that starter draws at least 100A so if it did participate in the circuit that the 30A fuse is part of, well there you go, right?
This issue presented with a turn of key, crank-crank-silence, it didn't die in mowing use or anything- I was sure it was the battery being old/shorted, initially.
But swapping the starter and all is magic. Cranks are about 25% more rpm than I had before. Maybe some high load to make the old starter crank leaked someplace and I have another problem to solve later- but I don't know how to make that thought experiment work.
@ Willy: The original starter and my Oregon replacement both came with a nylon drive gear. The flywheel ring gear looks super, no wear. From the serial this tractor should be ~1996 IIRC. It has 1190 hrs on it as of now. I am glad that you mentioned this so I could check, or I would have wondered/worried about it post-install.
Thank you all for your replies!
4016 serial 14191110Vanguard 16HP model 303447 type 1147-A2 3341 code 96082711
Yep, that top bolt is tough. I use a 1/4" drive u-joint socket and extension. I shortened the socket end about 1/16-3/32" to get it too fit well. Wrapping the u-joint with vinyl tape stiffens it up enough to allow its' use putting it back in.
I would have prefered a 1/4" drive 13mm swivel socket, but couldn't find a single, only as a set and really pricey.
I would have prefered a 1/4" drive 13mm swivel socket, but couldn't find a single, only as a set and really pricey.
I was able to chuck a short extension in a drill and use the 4-1/2" angle grinder to modify a 13mm socket to fit in behind the starter. I have an Allen 1/4" extension 10913 with a wobbly end that allows the socket to rotate like a u-joint. I'll probably go get an allen head bolt to put the new starter back in.
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