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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am curious to know what Case/Ingersoll was competing with when the 200 and 400 (and even the 7000) series tractors were coming out. I am thinking of selling my 7020 and wondered what else I could find that was as rugged and well built. My only complaint with our tractors is the lack of a traditional mechanical PTO. The stuff they purpose built fits perfectly, but it doesn't allow you to use many other implements, and case stuff is expensive and hard to come by. It sure is rugged though!

Just thought I'd pick the boards collective brain.
 

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Interesting question.

The answer isn't easy to give because the whole industry has changed dramatically since 1962. In essence, Colt, Case and Ingersoll do not have any "competition" because they are the ONLY brands that use hydraulic drive. All other tractors are either gear drive, hydrostatic drive or some form of mechanical variable drive. None of them can power implements that use hydraulic motors unless they add one like Deere does for their hydraulic tiller.

When the 200/400 models were introduced in 1969, they had competition from American brands such as Deere, Cub Cadet, Massey Ferguson, Wheelhorse and so forth. Companies like Yanmar, Kubota, Mahindra, Shubara and Kioti were no where to be found. If it wasn't for those companies, Ford, Deere and Cub Cadet would not have 4 wheel drive CUT's and sub-CUT's in the marketplace. It's my understanding that the current offerings from Case/IH and Case/New Holland are actually off-shore products.

Case and Ingersoll developed their own line of implements to work with their tractors. Implements must be properly matched, not only to the HP of the tractor but also to the weight and dimensions. The three point hitches are divided into four categories and those categories are based on PTO HP and tractor weight but they do overlap with one another to allow the widest possible choices by the end user. This is done because no one can make hard and fast rules due to ground conditions and tractor modification. As an example, a dead stock 60 hp tractor with a CAT-1 hitch could possibly handle a CAT-2 implement if the tires were loaded, wheel weights and front counterweight were added and the farmer had sandy/loam conditions on his farm.

Some sub-CUT's are fitted with a "Limited CAT-1" hitch. That means it will hook up to all the CAT-1 implements but thanks to being too light in operating weight and HP, that sub-CUT may not be able to use some CAT-1 implements effectively.

For these reasons, I don't see the lack of a mechanical PTO to be the problem you think it is. There are very few CAT-0 attachments that require a mechanical PTO and the ones that are out there are often proprietary in some way. In the big tractor world, the common PTO speeds are primarily 540 RPM but the larger machines offer 1000 RPM as well. These garden tractors that do have a mechanical PTO are often 2000 RPM.

When someone asks me what tractor they should buy, I turn it around and ask them how large a property they own, what they want the tractor to do for them (make a list) and how much money they are prepared to tie up in a machine that is not for business purposes. Sometimes, they find out that they need three or more pieces of equipment because a new tractor won't cut the mustard in all areas. That's what you need to think about before you make a jump that you may regret. If your so-called "burning need" only happens once or twice a year, then go and rent the right machine for the day or weekend. Or sub-contract the work out to someone with the right equipment and then think about how you can eliminate that need instead of putting up with it year after year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am using it mostly for gardening and light duty around the house. I seldom use the bucket. I feel like I am using a construction tool just to rototill. The few times I have used the grapple, I was glad I had it. Just seems like overkill I guess. I would like to mow with it so I can go down to one tractor. I have a 26HP craftsman that I use for grass duty, but the thing is thin tin and feels cheap.
 

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It sounds to me as though you have two wrong machines.

Why don't you find a 4020 PS package that comes with a rear pto, 3 pt hitch, sleeve hitch adapter, tiller, deck and snow blower.

Three point hitch mowers are a PITA unless you are cutting big, wide open areas.
 

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Snotrocket said:
You need a 3 point hydraulic finish mower for the back and you could eliminate your craftsman.
Technically correct but I sure wouldn't like to try mowing with my 7020. Way too slow and cumbersome unless you're planning to use a hydracutter and attack some wild and wooly rough areas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I have 3 acres to mow. I use my Craftsman YT 4500 with a 54" deck to mow about 2 of it. It takes forever because it doesn't mow very fast. A 4020 PS with the 60" deck would be sweet. I wonder if I can find a dealer and trade in my 7020? Hmmm...? The hard part will be finding an Ingersoll dealer in Maine. Funny they are made in Maine, but no one seems to sell them here.

Some of the mowing is a little uneven, but I was hoping to roll the heck out of it with a 48" water filled jobbie from craigslist and try to flatten it out. It may not be golf course smooth, but I have to go so slow on it now, it can't hurt. Plan B is to plow it all up, use the tiller on all 3 acres, and regrade it with the utility plow. I doubt SWMBO will have a problem with that!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I know what I can get for the Craftsman (not much), but dare I ask what I can get for my 7020LQA? I think I might keep the attachment.

How much is a 4020 PS with a three point? I can't even find a price.
 

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To be honest with you, discussing prices is almost pointless because if you have to go far afield to find a suitable 4020 PS, then the final price will be whatever you are willing to pay. Brian might be able to guide you on both tractors so that you set a proper price for your loader. What attachment do you want to keep?
 

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Tom, Please stop telling people that 3pt finish mowers are a PITA. I sold 400 of them last year (notice that I didn't say that I disagreed with you). Now if you want a real PITA, we just introduced a 3pt snowblower. Gregg
 

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Hops_Farmer said:
I know what I can get for the Craftsman (not much), but dare I ask what I can get for my 7020LQA? I think I might keep the attachment.

How much is a 4020 PS with a three point? I can't even find a price.
Assuming the 7020 is in nice shape you might get as much as $6500 since it has the desirable quick attach.

A nice 4020 PS with 3 pt would probably set you back $3500-4000.

As for the lawn, I've not had much success with rolling out bumps and if you till it all up you'll have a bunch of work to get it leveled out nicely and the grass reestablished. Since you've got the loader I would top dress the grass in the fall with topsoil then drag it with an old bed spring or section of chain link fencing to smooth it out.
 

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Nutcase446 said:
Tom, Please stop telling people that 3pt finish mowers are a PITA. I sold 400 of them last year (notice that I didn't say that I disagreed with you). Now if you want a real PITA, we just introduced a 3pt snowblower. Gregg
Would you like to mow a half-acre backyard with one if the yard had ten trees to mow around plus a gazebo, birdbath and several flower beds?

My daughter has a 25 acre horse farm. I have cut grass there many times. We always use the Deere ZED to open up the two pasture paddocks and then use the Ford CUT with a seven foot PTO finishing mower on the three-point hitch to cut the rest. No question that these units are great in their place but the ZED keeps the fencing from getting wrecked and the trees from being damaged. You cannot turn sharply in the corners because the tail swing of the finishing mower will club your fence.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hydriv said:
To be honest with you, discussing prices is almost pointless because if you have to go far afield to find a suitable 4020 PS, then the final price will be whatever you are willing to pay. Brian might be able to guide you on both tractors so that you set a proper price for your loader. What attachment do you want to keep?
If I am going to stick with Ingersoll I might as well keep my tiller, wood splitter, single bottom plow, and log grapple. They should all still work with a 4020, right?

Bart: As far as the estimate of 3500 to 4000, is that new or used?
 

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A few weeks ago Brian Hildreth was advertising his 150 hour 2006 4023 PS-PTO (dealer demo) for $7250. I'd jump on that if I was in the market. He said current MSRP is over $12,000 for that unit.
 

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Nutcase446 said:
Tom, Please stop telling people that 3pt finish mowers are a PITA. I sold 400 of them last year (notice that I didn't say that I disagreed with you). Now if you want a real PITA, we just introduced a 3pt snowblower. Gregg
Mine says Ingersoll,but I think it a PITA built unit. From what I can tell, PITA makes them for all the manufacturers.

A 3 point finish mower is a manly mowing appendage, but in Hops case, of limited value.

Take a 1700 lb loader and hang a 230 lb mower off the back and you have created a long,lumbering, quasi mowing apparatus. With any obstacles to mow around, progress will be slow, and with the turning radius of the Titanic, you gotta be patient.

Power steering makes manuevering tolerable,but mainly empowers you to hit more obstacles in a shorter period of time.

You spend a lot of time looking back to see if you are actually mowing anything useful, and glancing forward make sure you don't hit stuff. Occasionally, you feel a "Thunk" - usually followed by a bloody nose and a wounded tree.

Over time, there will be fewer trees, so mowing time improves.

It may be a PITA, but it impresses the neighbors and is really fun!
 

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Once again, I didn't say that I disagree with Toms statement. I have come to the conclusion (and yes I know what that's worth) that for a lot of people being on a tractor on the weekend is a type of therapy. If mowing their lawn with a 30hp CUT and one of my 5' 3pt hitch mowers makes them happy, who am I to argue. If I had to make a living selling to only farmers these days, I wouldn't eat very well.
I mow 8 acres (building a house in the middle of a cow pasture seemed like a good idea at the time) and I use a commercial Zero Turn. I finally convinced my father to try it a few years ago. He bounced around a little said "this is stupid" and went back to mowing with his 3pt mower. Gregg
 

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Hops_Farmer said:
If I am going to stick with Ingersoll I might as well keep my tiller, wood splitter, single bottom plow, and log grapple. They should all still work with a 4020, right?

Bart: As far as the estimate of 3500 to 4000, is that new or used?
Not sure how well the grapple will work--probably will work but I'm sure of how much you could handle with it, less than with the 7020 for sure. I know someone in WI who might be interested in the grapple. :sidelaugh:

All the other attachments will work just as well with the 4020. My price estimate is obviously for a used tractor but you might have to have some patience to get one since there aren't loads of 4020PS tractors for sale. I've seen nice ones go for $2500-$3,500 without a 3 pt. Maybe you should talk to Brian about a swap of your 7020 for his demo 4123(?), the values ought to be pretty close in my opinion.
 

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Nutcase446 said:
Once again, I didn't say that I disagree with Toms statement. I have come to the conclusion (and yes I know what that's worth) that for a lot of people being on a tractor on the weekend is a type of therapy. If mowing their lawn with a 30hp CUT and one of my 5' 3pt hitch mowers makes them happy, who am I to argue. If I had to make a living selling to only farmers these days, I wouldn't eat very well.
I mow 8 acres (building a house in the middle of a cow pasture seemed like a good idea at the time) and I use a commercial Zero Turn. I finally convinced my father to try it a few years ago. He bounced around a little said "this is stupid" and went back to mowing with his 3pt mower. Gregg
This isn't about disagreement.

To me, it's about choosing the best tool for the job. There's no question that a 3 pt finishing mower in 6, 7 or 8 foot widths can save a property owner a lot of time. However, there's also no question that they don't work well in tight areas.









My daughter's home sits high on a hill, facing the rural side road. She and her husband maintain a lawn around their home but the area between the lawn and the street is one of the fenced in paddock/pasture areas that need to be cut every few weeks to keep the weeds down. The above photos depict the two pastures, plus the stables where the horses live the good life. Fencing like what you see in the photos is an expensive item these days so it is a good thing to keep it from getting smacked by the loader or the finishing mower.

Not only can you snap off a fence post but it isn't hard to bend up the $2500.00 finishing mower, even at 8 mph. If you don't open the pasture with a lawn tractor of some kind, then you run the risk of coming in contact with stationary objects. In addition, cutting the grass in the corners is a problem. You have to back into each corner from two directions to try and cut it but you won't get it all because of the design of the finishing mower. And the loader is constantly in the way while mowing near trees, fences and buildings.

But once you are clear of all obstructions, the 3 pt finishing more shines.
 
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